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Salaam to everyone first of all i strongly feel about this issue as i have many times heard his speeches watched him on peace t.v channel giving lectures on islam, i admire him very much the way he deals with answers to questions non muslims n muslims ask, i think home secretary Mrs May should sit in on one of lectures then only she can judge someone and not just make those accusations, America IS a terrorist i say cos of wat ever country they have so far been in have they sorted the problem out?? No they havent just caused more n more distruction with bombs n bombs etc anyway just wanted to say that Mrs May before making that decision should have sat in his conference and then caught him the act if he said anything which he shouldnt then only she could ban him from this country not otherwise cos a lot of people muslims n non muslims wanted to go to the conference because of Dr Zakir, or maybe the home secretary was threatened by him that so much of english heritance people left in England may also convert to islam...lols.. Could be a reason for not allowing him to come because so many more people might convert to islam, because of his lectures so many have..... I believe without listening to him or looking at wat he is about she shouldnt have judged him....I think i will write to the parliment on this matter especially i feel they did a real bad mistake for not letting him in uk, as there is a high population of muslims in this country and they wanted to see him also he unites muslims n non muslims in his seminares in his lectures his always talking about world peace..... Feel so disapointed with his decision of the governments.......
zarinarose
I can feel how strongly you feel about this. But you know what? if you had used more than one paragraph and a bit more punctuation then i think i would have felt it even more.
I do believe that he is still going to do telelinks.
We are all terrorists in our own ways and if you look at us at different angles. (except if you're an extreme pacifist but that can still be argued)
maybe, maybe not, she felt threatened by him. we'll never know and knowing isnt going to change anything, she's got the power, she's using it.
Yep, someone did post this template letter in the previous comments. And i'm sure there must be a petition out there...somewhere...
and you know, everything that happens has some good in it. It's Allah's Qadr (now, am i allowed to use that argument? hmm...) but yeah...we should try and do something about it.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
It matters as such sociopolitical identities are forbidden as Muslims have been provided with such an identity called Islam which the ummah is bound together by - it is our commonality. One could hardly say I am proud to be a DevilWorshippingMuslim or HinduMuslim or CommunistMuslim without receiving criticism.
Interesting question - maybe something to ask Allah why he condemns eternally shaitaan for one act of disobedience, humans for committing shirk or hypocrisy...
The differences are:
1. You're not God.
2. Shaytan also has been given the option to repent and has been told what he can do to repent. he simply is too arrogant to take it.
(The story of Shaytan in the Qur'an is nuanced and he was not simply condemned for not bowing down - when he did not bow, he was asked why. It is the arrogance shown which condemned him and will condemn him as it made him now bow, to speak back and has been and also will stop him from repenting.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Maybe you missed it but since 7/7 there has been a strategy by the government to prevent terrorism and by extension, what they have fabricated, extremism (aka Islam) as its driver. PVE funding has been dished out to money grabbing groups who are happy to blame the Muslim community for causing terrorism in the UK (absolving the govt and its foreign policy as the causal factor!) and confirm that they can somehow solve the problem (which they don't even understand!) with the money.
Thus to "integrate/assimilate" Muslims into mainstream Britain, they need to be sold the British identity, and any characters or groups who oppose that process are blacklisted, termed "extremists/fanatics" and marginalised and not allowed to address Muslims.
So much for freedom of speech and debate to figure out the truth - let's just shove our version of the truth down the throats of the Muslims and block out all opposing views. Right!
@anon1 - no need to play the victim. We are in control over atleast some parts of our destiny and attempts to define muslims and force them towards specific directions have all been massive failures.
People are not automatons. They have brains and minds.
Blocking Zakir Naik is most likely not a conspiracy against Islam, but the Home Secretary playing to her audience to show she has a grip on the situation (when she obviously doesn't).
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
yes but you're not God. and he hasnt done anything wrong. Just because he is "thinking" it ( i put thinking in speech marks because we dont know what he is thinking, we just know what you think he is thinking) doesnt mean he isnt muslim. Has he done anything against Muslims? Had he allied himself to the "bad guys" against Muslims? If you want to change him, screaming and shouting isnt going to work, neither is acting patronizing and above it all.
There is no way on Earth you will find someone who thinks the same thing about everything the same as you. So what do you do in that case? Live a life of self-imposed loneliness/isolation?
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
this's got nothing to do with what i said?
i so far has being able to practise my religion quite freely and without much problem. I've got nothing to do with "the british identity" I'm not "British". But i still live in Britain and i'm still muslim. And that woman was just trying to show how conservatively conversative she is. let's just shrug and say "hey? were you trying to get to me? oh sorry..i didnt realise.."
to be honest with you i dont know what to say to that. no one can have anything "shoved down their throats" except if you let it happen. You're human. you've got a brain of your own.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
i think anon's just pointing out that the power is being misused?
not that that was being questioned :/
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
No, she is indicating that many in the Muslim community are sell outs, even though as far as I can tell, it is irrelevant to this topic.
@anon1 - are you frustrated by the Muslim community, seeing them act in ways that you do not agree with, or actively oppose your ideas?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
anyone would be frustrate to a certain degree if they saw someone doing something they thought was wrong or if someone kept contradicting what they said when they believed they were right.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
Yes it has - you provided a simplistic and crude political analysis, basing it on one politician and what she felt. In my opinion, it is a very poor analysis as even with anyone with a GCSE in the subject could provide a more substantive argument forward - to make the point I put a better analysis, which you can disagree with, but given yours and the one I have provided, mine is a little more substantive. Others are welcome to put alternative analysis if they have them...
I would guess that you are quite secular and thus feel no problem - most Muslims who pick and choose Islam live quite comfortably in Islam. Dr Naik however practices Islam and the dawah and does what he is ordered to do and look at the problems he has practicing his faith with the same govt with which you are so comfortable - the same govt that supports Israel, blocks Muslim dawa carriers who speak the truth, who is fighting a war against your brothers and sisters abroad...
You fail to notice that people cannot exercise the brain on all matters - they accept many ideas and notions from society around them as to analyse every single thing is not possible... all of us are full of no end of problematic ideas, values and perceptions...
I would say concerned... like I would be concerned if I lived during the colonialist occupations during the times of our forefathers and witnessed the exploitation and politics being played against them driven by dubious ideologies... I would speak out against it as Allah orders me to - he brings resultant change were it to happen not I...
I wasnt really trying to give a "substantive argument" or a detailed analysis of the situation. It just feels like you are trying to show off your knowledge when you see just the hint of a subject you know something about. Please dont say i'm jealous because really...
Soi'm...euh...secular? wait lemme googledefine that: "of or relating to the doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations " <-- first bullet point that came up. So i'm rejecting my religion and my religious considerations? Ahh i see...yeah...
Hey! the way you're describing this "government" of yours, lemme just ask, what are you still doing HERE? "Good GOD! living here, wait! that means buying stuff, and if not stuff, at least food right? OMG! that means...no...could it be?... contributing to the economy! the economy of this HORRIFIC governement! and NOOOO!! they use this money! to..to go to war!! and support israel!! and blocks muslims dawa caried who speak the truth!!!"
but YOU can use your brain (arent you the lucky one?)
So from what im guetting, (which i had to stare out for a while) we cant analyze stuff because we're full of "problematic ideas, values and perceptions" aka We're doomed. But if i want to be reasonable then i could say "yeah you're right. if we were to analyze everything we'll be stuck home thinking all day."
But wait...when something is being "shoved down your throat" i dont think that's too abstract to analyze. or maybe my simpleton mind has simplified the situation?
i give up trying to format this post, me and you both know who wrote what.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
good dnt cum to england stay where u are we dont need him here lolz and i am a muslim saying dat
You shouldnt say that. Some people were looking forward to his talk. and if you werent, then you just had to stay home and not go to his talk.
But can you tell us why you think that?
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
You were justifying what she had done - to deny it is absurd - your justification is clear as per posting above and wrong. Just admit it instead of insulting others who have had to correct it.
If you'd read a little further, you'd have noticed that secular can also mean the one who marginalises religion from political affairs or the public domain - Muslims who do that are welcomed by the govt - those who don't are "extremists". Why do you think Naik was banned? Because he was secular or he talked about Islam and political matters?
Hmmm slogans one would expect from the likes of the BNP. One can disagree with society - does that mean they must leave? What are you doing here? Why haven't you applied your own principle on yourself? Unless you agree with the govt arming Israelis to the teeth, killing Muslims, arresting and detianing people without charge, sticking cameras everywhere to keep an eye on Muslims etc
We can make mistakes in our analysis, actions and speech (you've reflected enough examples in your posts!) due to absorbing problematic concepts and values often without realising it. And I don't personally believe everyone thinks about everything - the forum discussing forced sex with a wife, ownership of wife by husband etc was quite indicative of the brainwashing most women, including Muslim women have had, who carry ideas of equality and human rights without a problem - normative ideas that conflict with Islam.
WOUAH LETS SLOW DOWN, good god, im guetting carried away in your wave here tututut. ZarinaRose said that Mat felt threatened by Dr Naik. maybe i used wrong punctuation so my point was misunderstood but if you go back up and read i said "maybe, maybe not, she felt threatened by him, WE'LL NEVER KNOW". Nowhere have i tried to justify her action.
btw i apologize for insulting you, never meant to do that. did you feel insulted by the "show off your knowledge when you see just the hint of a subject you know something about." part? Well you know, personal opinion from what ive witnessed but if you felt insulted, here is my apology in writing. I dont want to make enemies.
SO you think that i think that religion should be kept away from everyday life (aka politics and public domain)This part of the discussion is going nowhere as its based on an assumptions made by you about me. It's got nothing to do with anything, let's just leave it here. Just a word of advice from a muslim sister (if you can still consider me that) Assumptions arent good, EVER. So please stop assuming stuff because it really doesn't help and just give a bad image of yourself.
So the BNP has managed to introduce its ideologies in my head. the thing is here, you arent "disagreeing" with the government, from what ive read you hate and despise it. Correct me if im wrong, please.
So what do you say we do?
___
I just got a few questions: why do you think Dr Naik was banned?
a question you have not answered but have thrown right back at me (even though it doesnt apply to me as i do not hate the country): "Why do you still live in the UK" OHHH I THINK I GET IT!! You're allowed to stay in the UK because you're doing dawah right?
and of course the famous question: "what do you think we should do, now that our mind have become impure with the problematic values and ideologies"
ohh while formulating the last question another came in mind. "what do you mean by "problematic" values and ideologies? Nationalism, secularism, feminism? etc...??"
I also don’t think you replied to the stuff about “condemning someone because they disagree with you on one subject”
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwqoKfGjBvQ&feature=player_embedded]
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Political analysis is about probabilities as certainties are generally difficult if not impossible to acquire.
Suggesting a probable reason for her decision, would to most people who have an inkling of politics, imply that's your view regarding why she's probably making her decision.
If it's not, apologies for assuming it was.
What is your view then?
BKF no probs
Nope, from your comments I gained the impression you have a secular outlook - perception appears to be you have some knowledge about aspects of Islam, but other aspects, namely politics, it is weak. It's the case with most Muslims who live in the west - they are generally unaware of the political dimension of Islam as the lands they came from just taught them worships and rituals resulting in a lop-sided outlook of Islam and the world and why we have reached the position we have.
Maybe you can put an answer to this question - what went wrong with the Muslim world? Why is the Muslim world generally made up of third world failed states run by tin-pot dictators whilst the middle eastern region was once one of the most prosperous and progressive regions?
Having been born here I live here.
I don't hate or despise any govt - it's the ideology that drives it that I think is a problem and wrong and I dislike and the resulting institutions, systems and policies. On the contrary I love Islam and all that results from it - I think all societies would benefit from it and I work to bring about that perception.
Hmmm I'd say we need to recognise we carry many problematic notions often unaware - we need to ensure that we rethink all our ideas and values right down to the fundamental level and rebuild our internal thinking so it is pure and correct (as possible!).
If I was to ask you, how do you know God exists, or how do you know the thought processes you use are correct, could you provide thought out arguments or have you assumed these?
We see the world through the lens of thought that is in our head - if it is wrong, we see the world incorrectly and suggest incorrect solutions eg sending plasters to Palestinians when they also need military protection or voting for kuffar parties who perpetuate problems in the UK instead of forwarding an alternative solution.
___
I just got a few questions: why do you think Dr Naik was banned?
I answered it in a previous post - govt policy to integrate Muslims in its mould and characters like that reinforce the Islamic sociopolitical identity which causes a problem in this process.
a question you have not answered but have thrown right back at me (even though it doesnt apply to me as i do not hate the country): "Why do you still live in the UK" OHHH I THINK I GET IT!! You're allowed to stay in the UK because you're doing dawah right?
Didn't you advise me not to make assumptions?
Given there is no dar al-Islam in the world today, it is all dar al-kufar so I can live anywhere - it's "badness" is all relative.
and of course the famous question: "what do you think we should do, now that our mind have become impure with the problematic values and ideologies"
Rethink what ideologies we carry, starting with out epistemological premises
ohh while formulating the last question another came in mind. "what do you mean by "problematic" values and ideologies? Nationalism, secularism, feminism? etc...??"
Values include those fundamental social principles we cherish - problematic ones would include freedom, liberty, loyalties etc
Ideologies are structured social thought systems that have a sociopolitical dimension such as capitalism, democracy, secularism, communism, feminism, Islam etc
I also don’t think you replied to the stuff about “condemning someone because they disagree with you on one subject”
Condemnation would be determined according to the subject and according to the reasoning offered by the proponent - if one denied the existence of God, one could condemn them, if they killed people, one could condemn them etc If however they had a valid argument for their stance it would be difficult to condenm them.
My view... from what i've read/watch, it seems May didnt take base her decision on sound evidence. it also seems that she wasnt planning doing anything until articles in the press appeared. So i think she's trying to be all tough because its the "new" government, thats bringing about "change"
Yep, you're right. I don't know much about the political side of Islam. So im planning when my exam finishes to read this book about the 4 caliphs, and maybe also the biography of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) written by Safiur Rahman Mubarakpuri. Can you recommend any good books?
I think the "muslim" state arent so great because the leaders arent great, they arent truthful in their intentions. They don't want to lead a muslim state like it should, they want power and money. They also dont seem to know Islam, with laws and rules and restrictions that doesnt exist in Islam, making life for Muslims hard and giving a bad image to the rest of the world. Maybe i'm wrong, this is truly an ignorant's view on the topic, based one what i see around me. Tell me your point of view
that in itself isnt a reason. Lots of people don't live in the country they are born in. and i could even say that maybe there is a little bit of patriotic love there.
i love islam too, and i think Islam is the ultimate, perfect solution for everything. Whats the difference between a "government" and "the ideologies that drive a government"? because you said you dont dislike one but dislike the other. (and i dont see any difference)
but to do that we need a fundamental ways of thinking based on Islam. where do we get this from? No point starting from scratch with the same way of thinking right?
the thought process thing, can you give an example how a "problematic" way of thinking would differ to a muslim one? I think the differences would only appear on big things, like the way to run a country. ways of thinking on Smaller matters cant differ that much. after all we're all human, we're still "similar" even if we adopt different ways of thinking.
How i see it, is like a plant, the stem is where all the way of thinking start from, and then it gets bigger (do does the issues) and the ways of thinking divide into branches.
But at the moment there isnt anyone ready to offer military protection. We live in a Kuffar country. the lesser of the two evil would be to vote for the one that is going to make out life easier (religious wise) and let us be muslims to the best of our ability. the "alternative" would be to start a muslim party and hope that muslim vote for it?? but that would still not be good enough. But can we really just take over the country and establish a muslim state in Britain? Are we allowed to do that in Islam?
i didnt make an assumption, i said "right?" thats asking a question.
yeah but then the principle of "Hijrah" would be useless if everyone thought that way. If a country is "muslim" and you're from that country then you shouldnt be in a country that is "kaafir" right? But that is a difficult choice and i dont know much about this topic. i mean, what if the "muslim" state doesnt practise Islam the way its suppose to? like Afghanistan that stops Women from going to school and that forces them to wear the "burqa" ???? what do you do then?
freedom and liberty??? problematic?? HOW??
Jazakallah for the Definition.
Denying existence of God and killing someone are BIG issues that have unanimous responses to. but they ARE lesser stuff you can disagree about, thats what im talking about. no one has the same view on "minor" issues. how do YOU deal with that? (this isnt suppose to sound aggressive i'm just emphasizing on you as you the person, not you as in people in general)
___
sorry for the formatting..i give up..it doesnt like me T.T
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
My take is that May isn't making such decisions in isolation and though tempting to think so, is a little dangerous - the framework of tory party policy needs to be taken into account, as well as Labour policy relating to such figures (which the Tories were aware of having participated in legislation/debates over it in parliament over the last several years) as well as the civil service transmitting it to them, and APAC (Police contribution).
Collectively a policy emerges that terrorism in the UK is to be blamed on the Muslim community - despite all the research, security forces and community leaders arguing that foreign policy is the cause and the community can do little when anger overwhems individuals ranging from street youth, professional doctors, loners, memebers of jihadist groups etc - the government rather than changing foreign policy to an ethical one has fabricated a cause - radical Islam. Those pushing a version of Islam that goes against democracy is the problem and lets beat them with a stick. Policies such as funding, media appearances and visa admissions are all driven by this problematic understanding and solution of the problem of violent extremism.
I'd definitely read Hague and Harrop's introductory text to Comparative Government and Politics that gives you an overview of contemporary politics, Andrew Heywood's Political Theory/Political Ideologies - the three will give you a good grasp of the intellectual ideas, concepts and frameworks that are used by most political thinkers. Islamic texts like Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi's Islam and the World is good, as are the political writings of Mawdudi, Qutb, Baqr al-Sadr and Nabhani.
You've answered the question why Muslim states aren't too great - where did we go wrong and what went wrong to get us to such a degenirated state?
Many Muslims are in the business of fixing this problem, but few have given what caused it much consideration.
The reason is that most of my family live here. I like the city I live in no doubt, memories and all that... I don't feel I'm British, or English, and feel insecure in this society - my parents, friends and contemporaries all have a similar insecurity. None of our community leaders have a solution to this security issue...
A I'm referring to government here as the people who make up govt (the term has other connotations too) including parliament, civil servants etc
Many of the people themselves are generally ordinary and think they are doing good - the problem is the ideology, the belief system they follow, strongly influenced by capitalists, is what determines policies and legislation - some ideologies like Labour historically favoured redistribution of wealth whilst more recently have moved towards favouring commercial interests resulting in their contribution to overseas wars, including the war on Islam. These policies cannot be explained in terms of individuals and their views, but by the collective dominant ideology, system of beliefs, which determines policy formulation comprising of national commercial interests being paramount.
If you had determined the root cause of a cancer, you would need to seek a specialist who could deal with it.
Likewise, you need to speak to someone who can discuss fundamental concepts with you, establishing each building block and stepping through the process of how each set of ideas interconnect and build upon each other...
As you go through this journey, you notice the differences between different premises, their validity, and how final differences arise when people look at problems in the real world.
Sadly even most scholars do not go through this process, accepting many notions and paradigms at face value - not realising that most social ideas are little more than tips of icebergs...
The fundamental thought processes and how thought is constructed requires an essay...
Your metaphor is reasonable... I'd probably argue the roots are your intellectual basis.
I'm currently discussing with a secularist - having gone through the proof of the existence of the creator, using the rational thought process, he has began to move off onto a philosophical speculative thought process, suggesting that it is possible matter can come from nothing.
Rational thought stipulates something as a credible possibility where it has some evidence, and something to be certain where all evidence support one conclusion without exception. Asking him for evidence for this possibility, he cannot provide any, but considers it a credible possibility - unaware that he has entered the realms of speculative thought utilised by some philosophers to argue the universe comprising eternal spider webs or man being born free or doubting the correctness of our sense perceptions...
If none of the Muslim rulers are willing to offer military protection, surely that means we need to work to remove them? Many political parties are trying to do that and we should be supporting them, no?
Regarding the approach in the UK, thinking within the box is to create an Islamic political party and enter elections etc Why not consider doing what the prophet(saw) did - have a party that invites the rulers to Islam and if they choose not to, works to win over the society to Islam and change the entire system...?
Most Muslims countries have Muslim populations but do not have Islamic ruling systems, rendering them non-Islamic states, or dar al-kufr (despite being Muslim countries dar al-muslimeen). A country is ony dar al-Islam if it submits to Islam, ie rules according to Islam.
Without Islam, people will face zulm - whether in Britain or in Saudi or in Afghanistan.
Thus living in any is very little different from a point of view of living comprehensively according to Islam. Once an Islamic state is established, we must do hijra to it naturally and I personally would do that.
Freedom is the label for a convoluted political philosophy - arguing forget God - man was born free in the wild, totally and utterly free from shackles of slavery to anything. He then formed society and gave up a little of his innate right to freedom to gain security etc Built on this narrative secular political thought is constructed.
Compare it to the narrative that Islamic political thought is built upon.
Allah created Adam (as) as his Khalifah on the earth - Adam is in origin God's slave and must abide by God's laws in all matters and his life must be dedicated to worship God - freedom being given like that to a servant when he is free from serving his master. Thus the Islamic premise is Responsibility and not Freedom - conflicting philosophies and the resulting systems that emerge organically from these disparate premises are quite different and unique...unless you choose to lift the system from the doctrine of Freedom (and other similar premises) and import them to the Muslim world, where they are doomed to fail...
Dr. zakir naik is a true Muslim scholar with shirk free teachings, his message is not acceptable by many people because they don't find in there favor and find it to be very strict. people like those scholars who act as puppets in the hand of Govt.officials acting in there favour.I think may ALLAH give him more patience and may his work be recognize world wide.Times has proved that, when any one who want to suppress ISLAM by any means, then ISLAM has spread more easily as before in the people as in the case of 9/11.
At the same time i think Dr. zakir naik should restrain him self in making comments which are not acceptable and CRITICIZING other religions in the name of comparative religion. Because what is doing is sowing seeds of hatred in followers of one religion towards other religion,which is the not the path of ALLAH.specially his comments of western world relating to molestation and rape is completely unacceptable.EVERY ONE HAS FREEDOM TO EXPRESS HIS VIEWS BUT NOT BY INSTILLING A HATRED IN THE INDIVIDUALS OF ONE COMMUNITY TOWARDS OTHER. I have seen in him more of his qualities becoming famous and his greatness to be presented before public rather than presenting the greatness of ALLAH. May ALLAH give you more power and enrich his knowledge to present true message of ISLAM before the world in good manner not by criticizing other religions
Salaam Brother, Well said i congratulate you for such a brilliant way you expressed!!! I am with that, May Allah guide him more truthfully and give him patience... Ameen
Zarinarose
zarinarose
I will take issue here. He has a good memory mashallah a can on the spot pull out many references, but that does not meam that he is always right.
He considers people following the four schools of thought to be the biggest divisor of Muslims, ignoring the fact that muslims using tue different schools have mamged to live together in relative harmony for over a millenium.
The guy is ghair muqallid and on certain issues his views are ... clouded.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
For some reason I'm getting a deja vu feeling...
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