You wrote:

Messing with the body and its system of checks and balances does not bode well.

Is going the IVF route not also "cruel" to the many children up for adoption/fostering?

Why is IVF messing with the body?

I don't see it that way at all.

I see it as a simple process of extracting the egg cells and then putting them back in after they have been fertilized. In the right hands, this has been a success story in many cases.

I don't see the IVF route being cruel either, yes, I agree there are many children out there who want need to be adopted or fostered. But some people find it difficult to be emotionally attached to these children. IVF also resolves the natural craving some women get of the feeling of the fetus growing inside their body.

Would you see IVF as unnatural?

You wrote:

The physical limits may be there for a good reason (or not a god reason such as accidents etc)

Are you saying that if someone was infertile by nature, it may be for a good reason?
Why?
But if the person became infertile naturally or by accident, it leads to her being in the same position : they may want children but cant. Why is the background as to why they want IVF be so important?

You wrote:

and it must be said that I am talking here within the framework of a marriage - outside that such as allowing single women or homosexual women to concieve using sperm banks and the like is IMO wrong, while within the framework of marriage, its just something to think about as the reasons for the natural process to not work may be important.

Within a framework of a marriage,it is okay to consider IVF.
But what if the case is that the woman may not want to get married..therefore single..therefore want children? but the problem is that they are not able to?

You wrote:

Natural selection. Nature deciding that that gene pool is not the best to continue forward. Maybe it is damaged, diseased?

I think your just looking and focusing at one small aspect of a reason to become infertile. Have you considered other reasons? What about when the fallopian tube is blocked-maybe due to infection? If this is the case then IVF is a very good way to become pregnant.
There are other problems as well where females become infertile where IVF is an alternative.

You wrote:

Then she should shoot herself. or adopt.

There is a reason why it takes two to tango.

Now that is a very shallow way of thinking. Shoot herself? why? when IVF can solve the problem.

And as for your second statement >> >> is that referring to homosexuality?

You wrote:

ok, a single woman considering IVF... I am totally 100% against that.

It is selfish and cruel and she is wanting to bring another person in the world but also be disadvantaged from the start. She is not thinking straight as she is thinking only of herself and not of the child to be.

Tell her to buy a puppy.

What if a man wanted to get a baby to raise all on his own? same thing?

Selfish and Cruel?

Both are very harsh and strong words.

I disagree.

Why is being single considered a disadvantage? The woman may have relatives and family that could help her out. Or are you referring to her being infertile being a disadvantage? Because that would have no effect on bringing the child up.

"She is not thinking straight..."

Do you think so?
You do realise that with something as big as IVF, that she must have lots of consultations with her Doctor and family? That she will also be put on a waiting list, it is not always an immediate process? There is plenty of time to think about something like this. If they are within the marriage framework then obviously lots of thought would be going into it.

Why do you say that she is not thinking about the child to be?
How many cases of IVF have you heard where the child is bought up wrong? There is plenty of love going out to the child. Again the mother may want the child to be her own. As in the case of Nadia Suleman, she has always wanted her own children.

By a puppy? are you taking this seriously?

yes, a man may want a baby and raise her/him all on his own. But he would need a surrogate mother.

You wrote:

s.b.f wrote:

You wrote:

Then she should shoot herself. or adopt.

There is a reason why it takes two to tango.

Now that is a very shallow way of thinking. Shoot herself? why? when IVF can solve the problem.

It solves her immediate problem of wanting a baby, but it created more for the child of being already deprived a normal childhood/upbringing.

As for her wants, well some people want to kill. They are not allowed to. Sometimes personal desires need to be curbed - and when it comes to kids, personal desires should be on a backburner and the kid given first thought.

What is a normal upbringing exactly? Would you say you have had a normal upbringing?
Even if you are conceived properly, I dont believe anybody has a normal upbringing. SO I dont think there is anything to be deprived of.

Yes, I agree that sometimes personal desires need to be curbed. And especially when it comes to kids. But I dont really understand why IVF is thinking about yourself only. Why? Surely someone who has gone through that strenuous process is surely to be more attached to their child? Think about the side effects of IVF too.

side effects – physical

Like any medical treatment, there are potential physical side effects with IVF. Some women experience a mild reaction to the drugs, leading to hot flushes, headaches and mood swings. Ovarian Hyperstimulation Syndrome (OHSS) is a more severe reaction, when cysts develop on the ovaries and fluid collects in the stomach. Symptoms include stomach swelling, pain, nausea and vomiting. In some cases, an embryo may develop in a fallopian tube rather than the womb. This is known as an ectopic pregnancy. Signs include vaginal bleeding, one-sided and often severe stomach pains, sickness, fainting or light-headedness. If you show any signs of OHSS or an ectopic pregnancy, it's essential you tell your doctor straight away.
side effects – emotional

Many couples describe IVF as an emotional roller coaster. 'During my treatment, it was a regular struggle to control my emotions' says Tina* who became pregnant after going through three cycles of IVF. 'I couldn't believe how stressful and emotionally painful it was. Just seeing a mother with their child, or hearing someone announce they were pregnant could send me into a real downward spiral. My moods had a great impact on my partner too. It really tested our relationship. It was hard to remember not to blame each other when things weren't going well.'

Joan*, whose IVF wasn't successful, says her feelings ranged from excitement, apprehension, and joy to 'deep deep devastation, and shame when it didn't work'. 'I felt deep regret for my husband – I couldn't help feeling if he'd married someone else he'd be a dad by now.'

Angela McNab, chief executive of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA), believes counselling is one of the most important aspects of fertility treatment. 'The counsellor will be able to explore the issues surrounding infertility and will help prepare you for the prospects of success or failure that lie ahead. It's also common for problems and anxieties from other parts of your life to be triggered by the stressful process of treatment and this is where therapeutic counselling is vital for couples.'

( http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/F/family/baby/ivf.html)

You wrote:

No, its saying that a child should be provided with the best possible chance in life and handicapping it even before conception is evil.

Evil?
yes, a child should be provided with the best possible chance in life. But what do you mean by that exactly?

And handicapping the child? expand.

You wrote:

s.b.f wrote:

Why do you say that she is not thinking about the child to be?

Because she is already depriving the child before it is even conceived. Feel free to disagree but I did not expect to feel as strongly on this as I do.

There is always two sides to this. Maybe there is also that the benefits of the situation are higher than the negative side.
What are implying by deprivation? You can't always make it a perfect place for a child. There is always something wrong. Maybe these problems could be resolved in the future. and be sorted out.

You wrote:

yes and she is at 14 of them... she had already had 6 before the next set of treatment where she went for 6 eggs instead of the recommended three.

Mental stability issues?

Inshallah they will all be given their needed amount of attention, but I see it was thoughtless and uncaring for wished for anyone except for herself - and if herself is all she can think about, should she have any kids at all?

Okay, 14 kids to look after on your own is a handful. It is a stressful job. And maybe your going to an extreme by implying mental stability issues. But she is only one case. One case.

if herself is all she can think about, should she have any kids at all?

Yes. Because she is thinking about herself; she is letting her dream come true; which means she is satisfies; which means she gets what she wants; leading to her thinking about herself.

No. Because if she is only thinking about herself. Where are her thoughts for her fourteen kids?

You wrote:

I am also from a single parent family and I would not have anything changed. But that does not mean that that should be the aim from the outset.

Why not?

Is there really a difference between people who have been bought up by a single parent as opposed to people who have been bought up by both?

On a more religious turn on things:

What does Christianity, Islam...and other religions have to say on IVF?

You wrote:

I do not know the answer to that, but aiming to start from the potentially weaker position is not a good sign IMO.

Why is that a weaker position?

It just may be a struggle for the single mother and the baby for the firs few years. Its difficult raising a child by yourself. But, I dont see it as a weaker position. Just means more effort required by the single mother.

You wrote:

Islam says that an individual has a right to know who its parents are, so anonymous sperm banks etc are totally out of the picture.

I don't agree with the idea of using anonymous sperm banks. I think the mother and the child to be should know about the father. It can be an emotional problem for some kids in the future.

Does Single Motherhood Harm Children?

Graph: The risk of Dropping out of School, Teen Birth and Idleness by Family Structure Children who grow up with only one of their biological parents (nearly always the mother) are disadvantaged across a broad array of outcomes. As shown in figure 1, they are twice as likely to drop out of high school, 2.5 times as likely to become teen mothers, and 1.4 times as likely to be idle -- out of school and out of work -- as children who grow up with both parents. Children in one-parent families also have lower grade point averages, lower college aspirations, and poorer attendance records. As adults, they have higher rates of divorce. These patterns persist even after adjusting for differences in race, parents' education, number of siblings, and residential location.

The evidence, however, does not show that family disruption is the principal cause of high school failure, poverty, and delinquency. While 19 percent of all children drop out of high school, the dropout rate for children in two-parent families is 13 percent. Thus, the dropout rate would be only 33 percent lower if all families had two parents and the children currently living with a single parent had the same dropout rates as children living with two parents -- a highly improbable assumption.

The story is basically the same for the other measures of child well-being. If all children lived in two-parent families, teen motherhood and idleness would be less common, but the bulk of these problems would remain.

The consequences of family disruption are not necessarily the same in all kinds of families. Some might suppose family disruption to have a larger effect on black and Hispanic children since on average they come from less advantaged backgrounds and their underlying risk of dropping out, becoming a teen mother, and being out of work is greater than that of whites. Alternatively, others might expect the effect of family disruption to be smaller on minority children because single mothers in black and Hispanic communities are more common, more widely accepted, and therefore perhaps provided more support from neighbors and kin.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_consequences_of_single_m...