Ya'qub wrote:

Wow...Four pages of sensible conversation. Well, three pages of sensible conversation and half a page of idle chit-chat, but well done to everyone, anyway!

Unfortunately a lot of what many people wrote was very...err... weird?

Can I just say something about atheism (as a former atheist): Atheism is NOT a religion, and Atheists don't see 'science' as a religion either. Get this out your heads. 90% of Muslims I've met say something similar to this, and it is utterly misleading and does not help you 'understand' them either.

Also, atheism is NOT a belief in 'nothing', or not having a belief at all. And Agnosticism is when someone is unsure about whether God (or 'a god') exists or doesn't exist.

And Free Will... of course we have Free Will. If we didn't have Free Will then the existence of Enternal Punishment would be grossly, GROSSLY unfair, and would render Allah (swt) nothing more than a sadist (astaghfiruallah).

People say that because the 'book is closed and the ink is dry', then we all already have our 'Final Destination' mapped out for us. This is only true in-so-much that Allah (swt) exists outside of time. In a way, He has 'already seen' our final resting place, or more accurately, He knows what it 'will be', because He knows everything. But in all talk of Allah's (swt) knowledge and foresite, we have to realise that a human mind can only understand this concept through metaphor, because we can never get close to understanding His (swt) knowledge AT ALL.

The fact that He has written out our life already does not mean that we don't make our own choices, or that we aren't responsible. If you see a blind man walking along a road towards a hole, you might 'know' that he will fall into the hole, and you might write it in a book. But would this mean for a second that you were the one who pushed him into the hole? Of course not.

And I have been spending whole nights talking to my housemates about punishment/reward. I was, for a long time, uncomfortable with the fact that people who have no knowledge or belief in Allah (swt) would be punished, simply because they didn't believe. Even if they had been an honest person with good morals who hadn't stolen in their life, or been selfish, or even committed ANY other sin (other than disbelief). WHY is Kufr the biggest of all sins? Why is it worse than murder, worse than rape?

But now I realise something. EVERYTHING in existence points towards the existence of a creator. If you look at the stars in the sky at night, or the changing of the seasons, or even at the smile on a babies face (I know these are cliches, but they have become cliches for a good reason: they really ARE amazing).

Nobody can be fully blind to the beauty of creation, NO one can be deaf to the call of Allah (swt). It is barely relevant whether they have had access to the Qur'an, because all that Allah (swt) asks is that someone acknowledges His existence (as Noor posted, anyone who has an atom's weight/mustard seed's worth of Eeman will enter Jannah).

The only reason why someone can live in this world and NOT believe in Allah (swt), is if they have taken something else as their 'god'. This could be their own selfish desires: They 'refuse' to acknowledge they are dependant on some-One else for their own existence and sustenance (even though they 'know' that they are, deep down inside their heart). If they ignore their internal call - their Fitrah, then they utterly deserve punishment, because we all know that 'Mankind and Jinn have ONLY been created to worship Allah (swt)' (as it says in Surah al-Baqarah).

I apologise for the low quality of how I've expressed this, it would take hours (or more likely days) to adequately express my opinions on this. Can I ask everyone here to pray that my family sees the Truth before its too late. Jazak'Allah.

im not going to read your posts if you not going to read my facebook ones

he cant access facebook

Wow, deep post Ya'qub, Masha'Allah.

its cool how you said 'Allah (swt) exists outside of time', that makes all the Qadr & Freewill stuff clearer.

Noor wrote:

he cant access facebook

oooh i feel so stupid right about now.

I never thought Atheists believd in science... thats just silly. Isnt that wat Scientology is all about? :?

Its like Noor and Funzo were saying: good deeds and intentions count for alot (obviously not as much as belief coz thats a must).

Omrow wrote:

Salam

When the Angels of God see you carry out an act of terrorism,
it is then too late for you to be saved from the Fire of Hell.

And, as you all know, according to Prophet Mohammed's teachings,
you considered as one of them when you are seen helping those who
commit an evil act of terrorism.

Helpers of evil people are also evil. They too will burn in Hell.

That is the real Islam which most people still do not know.

Omrow

What if an ex-terrorist who's manipulated and forced into it seeks redemption? You gonna send them to Hell? Don't get me wrong I'm not defending anyone like that, but don't rashly send people to Hell.

Courage wrote:

What if an ex-terrorist who's manipulated and forced into it seeks redemption? You gonna send them to Hell? Don't get me wrong I'm not defending anyone like that, but don't rashly send people to Hell.

I wouldn't worry too much. I don't think Omrow really has the ability to send people to Hell.

It think is post was more about suicide bombers, rather than people who change their views and repent. Allah (swt) will forgive all sins if we repent. You've heard the story of the man who killed 100 people? Its very beautiful.

@Midnight: Scientology? The view that a few million years ago there were lots of monsters and then they all got put in a volcano and when the volcano erupted all their evil spirits were blown around the earth and now exist inside us? Yeah, based on science. :roll:

L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer before he became the inventor of a new religion which he called Scientology.

Salam

Terrorists have blood on their hands.

Without doubt, they will burn in the Fire of Hell, forever.

It does not matter to our Creator, whether you are a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew or whatever.

Omrow

Even those who repent?

Omrow wrote:

Salam

Terrorists have blood on their hands.

one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Naz wrote:

Omrow wrote:

Salam

Terrorists have blood on their hands.

one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Yes, but he is talking about people who actually ARE terrorists.

Maybe we, as humans are not valid judges of exactly WHO they are, but Allah (swt) is. Innocent people/non-combatants are not valid targets, for any reason.

Ya'qub wrote:

Naz wrote:

Omrow wrote:

Salam

Terrorists have blood on their hands.

one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Yes, but he is talking about people who actually ARE terrorists.

Maybe we, as humans are not valid judges of exactly WHO they are, but Allah (swt) is. Innocent people/non-combatants are not valid targets, for any reason.

Define a terrorist? Your defintion of a terrorist might not be mine.

Seraphim wrote:

Ya'qub wrote:

Naz wrote:

Omrow wrote:

Salam

Terrorists have blood on their hands.

one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Yes, but he is talking about people who actually ARE terrorists.

Maybe we, as humans are not valid judges of exactly WHO they are, but Allah (swt) is. Innocent people/non-combatants are not valid targets, for any reason.

You would think so. But they probably reason it out somehow like they're part of the enemy system and therefore work for the enemy etc.

{sigh}

No, they're CIVILIANS, they're not fighting you.

We cannot guarantee who will feel the fires of hell, and nor is it our right to do so. We are unworthy to consider we have any capability or basis to do so - as only the Allah aza waj'al, The Almighty has supreme and absolute authority.

Some scholars have said that non-muslims who have not been conveyed the message of Islam or made aware of its teachings (and therefore have not been given the opportunity to accept or reject it), will be innocent of accountability, and therefore not be part of the group that are to be judged in that regard.

Allahu alim.

Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala created 100 parts of mercy on the day He created the heavens and the earth. Only 1 part of this mercy was laid out for all his creation to use on earth. So all the mercy, and compassion, and all the kindness and care that you see on this earth, between all of the creation, between ourselves, from our ancestors till now, is from that 1 part of mercy. The 99 parts of mercy that are reminaing, Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala will show and bestow upon us on the Day of Judgement.

Salaam

At what point would it be too late for me to be saved from the hell fire?

In my opinion, its when I burning in the hell fire. And even I would hope that the Prophet SAW would save me from it. I would never give up hope that it was too late. Is the worst of the worst greater in power than the best of the best?

Interesting little life lesson here. If I'm saying that I wouldn't give up hope even in hell, then what right do I have to give up hope in any difficulty I encounter in the world?

Dawud wrote:

Salaam

At what point would it be too late for me to be saved from the hell fire?

In my opinion, its when I burning in the hell fire. And even I would hope that the Prophet SAW would save me from it. I would never give up hope that it was too late. Is the worst of the worst greater in power than the best of the best?

I heard a hadith, dunno if Sahih or if I can remember it correctly or not, but it something like...

A man will be in front of Allah (swt) on the Day of Judgement. His bad deeds will weigh more than his good deeds on the scales, and He will order the angels to take the man to the Hellfire.

As the man walks away, he will turn back towards Allah (swt), Who will ask him why he did that.

his answer will be (something like), "I knew I was very sinful, but I always thought You would forgive me."

And for THAT (yes, just saying that sentence), the man will be forgiven for all his sins and taken up to Paradise.

Don't quote me on it, I can't remember where I heard/read it, but it's pretty nice, all the same.

I dont think we can really judge who will and wont get in. On the one hand Allah (swt) has made soooo many ways for us to get into heaven but on the other hand sometimes the smallest of things can negate that.

Does anyone remember the story about that woman (she may have been a prostitute) who gave water to a thirsty dog and for that one act got into heaven.

I think that story shows how ultimately its all up to Allah (swt) even after we've done everything we can.

Yeah, and it's really sad that may people just focus on his anger.

Is there some deeper meaning? Maybe a difference of culturish thing.

wednesday wrote:

What's wrong with divine anger/wrath? Why is it perceived so negatively?

Because it is negative. The wrath of Allah can not be bourne, or resisted. His wrath is with His displeasure, to be in His wrath you would have displeased your creator.

Wrath is understood as a polar opposite of Mercy. Mercy is a positive virtue, read my sig. Allah loves those who show mercy. Traditionally, the first hadith a student of Ahadith is taught is "the hadith of mercy":

Those who have mercy will receive the mercy of the Most Merciful. Have mercy on those who are on earth, the One in heavens will have mercy on you.

The Ahadith is knowledge according to a Hadith of Abu Hurayrah and wisdom according to the Qur'an. Therefore when embarking on the journey into knowledge and wisdom, and let us understand that the knowledge refered to is virtuous and beloved to Allah, when embarking on this journey, it was traditional to be baptized (baptism from Greek βάπτισμα and βαπτισμός, meaning "immersing", "performing ablutions", "spiritual cleansing") with the hadith and Prophetic instruction of Mercy.

The philosphy of hope and fear apply directly to Divine Mercy and Wrath. You hope for Allah's Mercy and fear his Wrath. The philosophy of purpose is that it guides your actions and permeates your motivations. This is seen in the Hudood punishments, those punishments which are the right of Allah SWT. The philospophy behind them is not to punish, it is to instill a fear and aversion of commiting certain acts. There is a certain amount of carrot and stick here but understand that Wrath and Mercy are not neutrals that are applied merely as carrot and stick.

One has blessing, the other is devoid of blessings (when passing therough Hadramawt the Prophet SAW commanded the Companions RA to pass quickly as this was a place where Allah's wrath had descended and so it wasn't good to tarry here.) One is prefered, the other is not. Understand that Allah does not dsesire that you come to know his wrath, He SWT desires that you come to His Mercy. Our Prophet SAW told us that Allah SWT only created mankind for the sake of His beloved Prophet SAW and from his part SAW, He SAW told us that "I have not been sent, except as a mercy to the worlds."

Allah only created the world for the raising of His Prophet SAW, and the Prophet SAW was only sent as a mercy for the worlds. There is a clear relationship of love entertwined with mercy. The name of the Prophet Ibrahim AS derives from the title "Abu Raheem" the father of mercy, or incredibly merciful. The title of Prophet Ibrahim is "khalil Allah" the intimate friend of Allah and "Khalil" derives from the word "intertwined". God's love is all mixed wih his mercy. They are so mixed that you can't seperate them!

Wednesday, I read your poem thing and I see where the father is coming from. But I see him as a parent who could develop a little more skill. The difference between the father's fear of loosing his daughter and beating her and the skilled parents' caress is like the difference between a unskilled painter and a skillful one. The unskilled one, beats the canvas with his brush and very little of his heart's light is manifested. The skillful one caresses the canvas and creates a master piece.

[quote=wednesday]Isn't divine wrath a form of divine 'smile'? quote]

No. Allah wants us to see him as Mercifu,Kind and Forgiving.

yes Allah wants us to KNOW that He can be angry, but there's a reason why we start things by saying "In the Name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful."
I think primarily we should focus on the "Light" side of Allah, and introduce him like that.

The Lamp wrote:

yes Allah wants us to KNOW that He can be angry, but there's a reason why we start things by saying "In the Name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful."

You da man!

Seraphim wrote:

Was just wondering. At what point, if any, is someone too lost to be saved from hell fire?

You must really be the worst of the worst right?

Got a question over this:

6. Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.

That is Surah Baqarah Verses 6 and 7.

Strong words that should worry. It seems to suggest that death is not the final chance for some people - for some people they will not be able to be saved long before then...

But the seal can break, as it did with Umar (ra), only an idiot would have suggested months before that he'd have converted.

wednesday wrote:

If Allah *chose* to seal their hearts and cover their eyes from the truth then why would Allah punish them for soemthing that is out of their un-divine hands?

everyone has free will. obviously God knows what path everyone will take. so when God told the pen to write, the pen wrote what path that person would take, God didn't say oh i'm going to throw that person into hell, i'm going to make him astray, He already knew what that person would do.

make any sense?

aahh can't edit.

I can delete that post to allow you to rewrite it?

Interesting Topic

Ya'qub wrote:

Can I just say something about atheism (as a former atheist): Atheism is NOT a religion, and Atheists don't see 'science' as a religion either. Get this out your heads. 90% of Muslims I've met say something similar to this, and it is utterly misleading and does not help you 'understand' them either...

I apologise for the low quality of how I've expressed this, it would take hours (or more likely days) to adequately express my opinions on this. Can I ask everyone here to pray that my family sees the Truth before its too late. Jazak'Allah.

Thanks for sharing that it definitely wasnt low quality btw!

Dawud wrote:

wednesday wrote:

What's wrong with divine anger/wrath? Why is it perceived so negatively?

Because it is negative. The wrath of Allah can not be bourne, or resisted. His wrath is with His displeasure, to be in His wrath you would have displeased your creator.

Wrath is understood as a polar opposite of Mercy. Mercy is a positive virtue, read my sig. Allah loves those who show mercy. Traditionally, the first hadith a student of Ahadith is taught is "the hadith of mercy":

Those who have mercy will receive the mercy of the Most Merciful. Have mercy on those who are on earth, the One in heavens will have mercy on you.

The Ahadith is knowledge according to a Hadith of Abu Hurayrah and wisdom according to the Qur'an. Therefore when embarking on the journey into knowledge and wisdom, and let us understand that the knowledge refered to is virtuous and beloved to Allah, when embarking on this journey, it was traditional to be baptized (baptism from Greek βάπτισμα and βαπτισμός, meaning "immersing", "performing ablutions", "spiritual cleansing") with the hadith and Prophetic instruction of Mercy...

and thanks for that too.