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u obviously didn't see my posts with regards to the niqab ban in London universities. why are u putting her in the same category as people like Abu Hamza and Omar Bakri who do exactly what you've described above? all she's asking for is to wear an extra piece of cloth, i doubt a sane non-muslim is gonna run away screaming after hearing that.
Yes, shabina IS speaking for many Muslim girls, but she's not saying 'we should all go and blow ourselves up', she's saying 'i wish to wear a garment called the jilbab'. oh for God's sake will u guys give it a rest with HT already - the girl has her own brain and the ability to make decisions just like you and i. there's no need to be so demeaning. :? oh thats a great idea - cut off jilbabis from everyone else like they're another species or summat. a jilbabi has every right to go to whatever school she wants, just like every other young girl. she had male teachers. no, jilbab simply means 'outergarment'. u may be referring to 'hijab' which can mean 'barrier' or 'screen'. yes, thats one opinion. u need to come to terms with the fact that differences of opinion exist, and in fact it is a minority of scholars who go with the above. yup, she's [i]only[/i] 'fussing' over something which she has reason to believe is an obligation upon her. the Prophets (a.s) and their followers put up with persecution, the extent of which we cannot imagine. are we going to trade our beliefs over fear of Islamophobia? as u said, we are able to practice Islam freely in this country, i have never encountered islamophobia except from some cheesed off old ladies, didn't bother me, i felt sorry for them! from your viewpoint, muslims should restrict [i]themselves[/i] from following what they believe is right, before the government has even said anything in that direction... :? i agree the school were accommodating (i suppose they didnt have a choice what with majority of their students being muslim) but unfortunately they did not get complete input on the subject of hijab. i do not know the specific imaams involved and their qualifications, so i'm not going to pass judgement on them. just as the shalwar kameez was incorporated into the uniform (it probably has the school logo on it, or is the same colour as everything else) similarly a school jilbab could have been made, i know of Islamic schools where some girls wear the jilbab and others wear a long top and trousers, but they're all in uniform because everything is one colour and it all has the school logo embroidered on. its not about defending muslims. its about 'enjoing good and forbidding evil' regardless of who's doing it. the Prophet (s.a.w) judged fairly between dhimmis and muslims, between muslims and muslims, etc. its not about the person, its about their actions. simple as that. you'd be surprised how many jilbaabis AND niqaabis out there go to school, college, uni, work without a problem. the difference is they dont all get expelled from their places of work because of what they wear. for goodness sake. :roll: we are all humans, living in a multicultural, pluralistic society, we treat eachother equally. the way i see it there is nothing to fear and u are overreacting big time. even if i did fear major islamophobia in this country, i would still hold the same beliefs. i'm not going to adopt a milder flavour of Islam just so its more palatable to islamophobes. i agree about the muhajiloonies, but they are not the same as HT, they broke off because they disagreed with eachother, the former being more extreme. brothers and sisters from HT are majorly misunderstood, u shouldnt be so judgemental. yea, she caused the end of the world. :roll:
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
What if the supply does not meet the demand?
And private schools cost. Not exactly easy for an orphan to get in is it?
So you saying people should act to the fulle xtent of islam only if they have the money?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
i dont agree with any of your points... u , none of mine... fair enough..
shabina begum reminds me of the taliban... and osma bin ladin... going to an extreme to defend 'their islam' even if it is damaging in the long run, not giving damn about the rest of the ummah, and how their actions affect them.
obviously u dont understand concept of school uniform
obviously u use emotions over wisdom.. asister is asking to wear jilbaab, lets support her, next some 'modest' girl will take school to court because she cant wear niqab!!!! ppl need to think before they sue, or go to court and try to take the law on.
obviously u dont see this case is stremgthening the bNp and other islamophobes..hey but who cares... i want my jilbaab an di want it now!
obviously u dont see she is INFLUENCED by other forces on this matter, a girl of 15 doesnt get obsessed with such an issue- unless somebody else is pulling the strings...
obviously u dont understand that shes not just saying I WANT TO WEAR HIJAB , shes saying change ur laws for me, rest of muslims are ok, but im not happy, so change ur rules, laws, uniform policy for ME! im special, im different..so change ur laws... doesnt go down well in eyes of ordinary peaceful non muslims, damges dawah.... but you dont care about that do you, as long as shabina gets to wear her jilbaab...who cares if alot of non Muslims get a bad, and negative view on Islam and Muslims...!
obviously u dont see that this case has opened up the issue of hijab again... in france it is banned , here it is allowed...we shud be greatful, oh no, shabina begum wants to be ungrateful and take the world to court, its not courgaeous, its idiotic!
obviously u dont undestand that because i dont support her actions im not saying we should have a milder version of Islam, Islam teaches us wisdom...shabana begum shouts ' my right' 'my rights' when she doesnt realise that her rights are already fulfilled...
i could continue but i dont think theres any point is there?
'Ed stop being cndescending.
(and the Taliban had some redeeming qualities. which were well hidden their ineptiture.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Ed i personally would be very embrassed if i was you, with that statement^^^^^. I wonder if Mpac or some other organisation had been backing this case would you be saying what you are, i know you ain't a big fan of HT, they nowhere near the radical extremist that is stated sometime.
What you seem to imply Ed is we should live like some scare animal, because we have it so good here :roll: . Well good luck in appeasing the right wing. I sure people alot of people are more understanding and with intellectual dialogue would appreciate the situation. If people are willing to work within the laws of the country, whats your problem. There no need to be all apologetic over it.
You know what next it be the beard and i sure we will have some people saying, you know the beard isn't fardh, it no big deal. Then drinking acholol is Makrooh so we can fit right in and go for a beer after work. I sure the BNP will love us then.
The fact there is a difference of opinion on the Jilbaab, i hear shabina in her interview state that, now it seem you be intolerable to this fact, which make you like some people who you have opposed in the past.When the jilbaab is being linked to extremism i personally find it worrying. The school she went to is amoungst an area where there 10,000's muslims living and is their target audience, now i would have expected them to be able to adapt to their audience. The fact is the shalwar kameez is not worn in the Malaysia or Indonosia or African countries, while the Jilbaab is consider the universal islamic dress code for muslims girls worldwide. The problem is that we had scholar thinking culturally rather then the universal religion Islam is.
And you can try to imply that i only supporting her because she muslims. But you never saw me stick up for the Gay muslims show. I only stick up for muslims who i believe are trying to hold to what i consider Islamic principles. No matter what the concidences are. Well there is something done by muslims that i believe goes against islamic principle, i of course speak up, but i won't let the british media or certain element of the disbelievers dictate to me what to believe, don't get to heavily influence by the media, that all i say.
"A true Muslim is thankful to Allah in prosperity, and resigned to His will in adversity."
[url=http//www.guidancemedia.com/videostream.php?id=Burda.mov]Quran[/url]
i'm a muslim girl. if anyone should have been affected by shabina's actions, its me, and other muslim girls. but i am telling u i have not experienced any major islamophobia. so are u going by how u [i]think[/i] muslim girls are affected, or what actually happens.
lemme ask u something - if a muslim girl went to court, the exact same process as shabina, except she was seeking her right to wear a headscarf, what would be ur stance? no i dont because i went to school in timbuctoo. again: u obviously havent seen my posts about the niqab being banned in some London universities.
she did think it over, it wasnt a knee-jerk reaction. she discussed the matter with her principal and school committee members and did not get anywhere, i think she went to local council members too to no avail. going to the court was a last resort. such people are called islamophobes for a reason - they have an irrational fear. the BNP is not going to suddenly turn around and say 'we love u muslims now - u havent appeared in court or newspapers in the last few months'. people who hate us so vehemently will continue to do so till Allah guides them. well u wont know - u may have been 15 once but you'll never be a girl. i was never pushed into wearing the hijab, jilbab or niqab; they were all my decisions and my parents and brothers even dissuaded me from wearing the niqab. she could have pulled out at any stage had she been pushed into it. i doubt Cherie Blair would have worked on the case if she thought Shabina was being pushed into it. yes she is different, but not by choice - 'rest of the muslims ARE ok' because we havent been forced to leave our jobs or schools or college because of our religious attire. thats what you're assuming - i know of non-muslims who dont have a problem with shabina's case. they're just glad she's going through the legal process instead of resorting to truly extreme means of getting her point across, which muslims are unfortunately more renowned for. if i walk down the street in a jilbab and cause a non-muslim to think bad of me, whose fault is it? is it really my fault that the person is shallow enough to judge me on what i'm wearing, or too arrogant to come and ask me about it? yes, who says we are not greatful, but does this mean we sit down quietly and no longer expect further? Martin Luther King could have remained content with the status of black people of his time, he could've thought 'atleast we're not all being exterminated', but he stood up and fought for what he percieved to be his rights. no, her religious rights were not being fulfilled because she was of the opinion that jilbab is fardh upon her. you're right - Islam teaches wisdom, not complacency.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
i disagree with Mr Ed but I also disgree with dust n yuit
IMO she is NO WAY an extremist-or anything to do with taliban etc
BUT she needs to understand what "uniform policy means" and shouldnt have kicked uo a fuss with an already reasonable open minded school
I think the school should have allowed it. Under the proviso the clothing was all grey. Or a dif colour from the uniform.
Even with the allowed 'ethnic' clothes that institutions allow, they should be in the colour of the uniforms, or close.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
why?
does she run the school? shud the school change their entire uniform policy just cos one person wants it?
more muslims on the school board as councillors is the answer to such things
have you heard of embrace, extend, extinguish?
You allow it. You add certain conditions.
Now if the person really wanted it, the conditions are ok. If the person is playing with the system, the person will rather change their outlook than accept the conditions.
Now grey is not exactly stylish. Its will probably fit into the uniform.
So if the person is wearing it for the wrong reasons, they will be caught out. If they are wearing it for the right reasons, it will fit into the uniform.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
im sorry but u all live on a different planet...
yuit, im not embarrassed by any of my comments... they may not be popular here... but do i care... some of you lot should be embarrassed, because you dont really know what you are defending....
some ppl here dont understand a simple policy of school uniform... so simple to understand but ppl here dont get it...oh they hate muslims, theyre anti-islamic...NO , its against school uniform policy, thats it!!!!
yuit, ur arguments are weak and emotional- thats all... no real logic, evidence, arguments... ur comments about beard, alcohol...are childish.
and Dust..urs i can detect some anger..so i will leave it there...
i aint apologetic...i say it how i see it...and i think this case was wrong ...simpel as...i dont think there was any need of it...
..but obviously the rest of u disagree...so lets leave it there....
I being the emotional one, yeah ok mr shabina remind me of Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban, righhhhhht :roll: , I just surprise how some muslims think that muslims should overlook what they believe are obligation act, whether other believe they are or not is irrevelant to me. [b]Plus you haven't answer Dust question, on whether u would still have this opinion if it had been over the Hijab?????[/b]
The fact is I live in the town next to Luton, my town is much more less islamically active then Luton, but we still have 10-20 girls who wear the jilbaab to school. In teh year i was at school, only one sister in my year wore hijab, i remember a occasion when this girl was chucked out of lesson for wearing it, but unlike so many people before she didn't take it lying down, she kicked up a fuss and alhumduillah the whole school change their policy. Since then i say about 60% of the muslims girl wear the hijab at school now.
Now for many people they may see this as one student between a whole institution, I see it differently. Because i personally seen alot more sister adopt the jilbaab since this case, plus i sure if she had won, loads of other would have adopted the jilbaab at her school, it the simple fact not all of them were as brave as this Shabina girl. School uniform are always adapted for beliefs, look at sikhs, now we already discuss limitation in shalwar kameez and it being more cultural.
Now to my understanding no one broke any laws, Shabina was well in her right in this country to take the school to court, it is something this country pride itself on, given the individual their rights. If the Prime Minister wife took up the case, I can't believe how frighten some muslims are of some muslims standing up for their right.
Anyway i said all i need to on the subject, all i will say is that the Ummah need more people like Shabina. Subhanallah such strong character for one so young. Better then the current crop of muslims youth and even elders who are the real one who giving muslims a bad name, with their immoral behaviour.
w/s
"A true Muslim is thankful to Allah in prosperity, and resigned to His will in adversity."
[url=http//www.guidancemedia.com/videostream.php?id=Burda.mov]Quran[/url]
yuit you are the voice of reason atm!
It did go too far though.
The system is there for a reason. (To use it, not to break it :twisted: )
She did not break the law with her demands.
But now there is a recedence, which can be bad if my understanding of law is correct. Fresh Prince? you do law? what about the others? what are the legal implications of this?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
i support hijab, no compromise can be made on that
jilbaab is diff all together
as i have explained, a long coat, a long jumper etc et cis a jilbaab
no we dont need more ppl like shabina begum
no one is frightened my dear friend... some try to use wisdom in a non muslim country... others dont what it is if they got run over by it!!! to some people if u disagree with them it means ur brainwashed or scared of non muslims...what a joke!!!
yuit u support everyone, even abu hamza etc...so ur comments dont surprise me...
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
so u can't accept the fact that many muslims view the jilbab at the same level as u view hijab?
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
Exactly!
Everyone has different views regarding the concept of "jilbaab". the girl asked to wear a jilbaab, which is just the same as a long skirt with top, i mean who would know if you are wearing a jilbaab with a cardi on top?
I think the two things are practicaly the same cept for the jilbaab being one garment. It's easier for males to say what is acceptable as they aren't the ones wearing it.
One of the reasons I do not participate much in similar topics.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Do I really, i remember i didn't agree with alot of what MPAC said, or HT and i can never ever remember supporting anything u said
. But the thing is, i don't like certain muslims being thought bad of, for the littlest reason, the benefit of doubt that muslims should give to each other, well at least till we left in no doubt, has completely gone
My opinion on Abu Hamza, Bakri and Osama has alway been the same, if what has been reported about them is right, they totally wrong and i disagree with them. I have condemn them in the past. But if you think by linking my name with them will discredit my agruments, well u wrong.
It just I don't trust the media anymore, after all they call HT a radical extremist group :roll: , they actually got me believing in WMD in Iraq at one point. You talk about Wisdom, well IMO wisdom come from not letting the media dictate to muslims today. We just have different idea on what wisdom is i guess. :?
"A true Muslim is thankful to Allah in prosperity, and resigned to His will in adversity."
[url=http//www.guidancemedia.com/videostream.php?id=Burda.mov]Quran[/url]
i dont either i dont think many people do or did.
on the point of jilbaab and this topic i agree with most of what editor says
the jilbaab to me is a personal choice of clothing an outer garment which covers the outlines of the body - it can be anything that does this
i would agree with Shabina that she must fight for her right as a human being to wear what she wishes but to make it an Islamic issue is not fair especially as there are so many interpretations of what is deemed to be the jilbaab.
i always wear a coat in winter and shawl in summer or light coat - nothing is ever exposed - i dont see the sense in kicking up a fuss over this issue.
it seems that there will always be an ongoing disagreement between those who feel that the long one piece garment is fard and those who believe that any outer covering is permissable - i know it is where i live and frankly i'm bored with the whole thing
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
I think thats a good point. It is indeed concerning that the Jilbaab is seen to be extremist when it is the standard dress for women in large parts of the Muslim world.
Where I live African Muslim girls, especially Somali girls, wear the Jilbaab with no complaint from the schools who understand that it is part of their cultural attire.
It seems this school has made a decision on uniform based on the assumption that the salawar kammez garb is Muslim dress. They fail to take account of the fact that most Muslim women don’t wear that outfit and have other requirements or preferences.
If schools in London have no problem with it I see no reason why this school objects to the Jilbab.
The ban is petty.
Good point made that she could have worn a jilbab with a very loose cardyigan/shirt-type-clothing on top of it.
Admin also makes a good point about embrace, extend, extinguish.
Thats also a good point, in a sense then the School thought they were accomodating the Islamic dress code already.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
isnt that being pedantic?
disagreement - difference of opinion what does it matter the 2 parties or how ever many parties with their interpretations just cannot agree to form one consensus opinion on the jilbaab
for what its worth i do believe the long over dress is excellent method of coverage but i just wont commit to wearing it and i wouldnt expect anyone else to wear it or not wear it. but making an issue of it and presenting it to the west as the Islamic norm is deplorable
fair enough, u dont want to wear the jilbab, but is shabina saying u should? this is the point i was trying to make in my previous reply to u - shabina is not forcing her point of view on anyone, she has acknowledged that a difference of opinion exists BUT the opinion she follows makes it compulsory upon her to wear the jilbab so she's asking for her religious right - she's not saying 'every girl in my school should be forced to wear the jilbab'. am i making any sense?
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
I think you're over analysing, the second quote (I think) was to illustrate the first quote, i.e.
"whats the difference between discus throwing and frisbee?"
then
"They're both throwing a spinning disc around and trying to get it to go to some place."
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
If this school was in Southall, Acton or Shepherds Bush in London they would have had no problem with the Jilbaab.
They would have realized that many of their female Muslim students wished to wear it as part of their uniform.
The school was slack in its research and was badly advised by the Mosque they consulted.
Now they are too stubborn to change their policy and are making a big deal over what should be an easily resolved issue.
I wish Shabina good luck with her case.
Dust...Masha'Allah sister...your points were just superb!
there was a thread posted on another forum regarding sister Shabina's case and the jilbaab, and the people were coming out with all kinds of negative views and justifications on the unimportance of her case and the jilbaab.. ....in the end the post was closed with a disasterous outcome
"If your love is sincere then obey him; for the lover obeys the one whom he loves."
"When a community takes to misdeeds, it takes to decorating Mosques"
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