All the MPAC articles on her are dead (no longer available) - cant show you the thread... Sorry Dust

My intentions wasn’t to undermine MPAC, however they still haven’t replied to my funding question.

That was the one asking for a breakdown of how funds are used right?

...it's illegal to withhold that information here, maybe you should ask in a more forceful manner.

It's important to know.

"Augustus" wrote:

That was the one asking for a breakdown of how funds are used right?

...it's illegal to withhold that information here, maybe you should ask in a more forceful manner.

It's important to know.

Hello Sir,

Yes indeed, you have a good memory, I've written to them haven’t heard nothing- I'll be allowed back on the forum in 10 days, Inshallah I'll chase it up with them.

It's funny when you donate to Mpac, instantly you get a reply, thanking you for the contributions, however when I wanted to get in contact with head of funding, I’m left scratching my hair.

lol I remembered because the responses seemed really fishy.... nobody said anything and there was lots of dodging.

Kinda shady :?

"*DUST*" wrote:

gosh, searched for this topic only to realise it disappeared with the old version of this board which we lost thanx to admin not backing it up or wotever... :roll:

that thread was pretty big as well...

Brief Summary, can listen to her speech:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4310545.stm

"Augustus" wrote:

lol I remembered because the responses seemed really fishy.... nobody said anything and there was lots of dodging.

Kinda shady :?

:roll: no one is accusing them of being dishonest, but certainly they acting like it.

Question to Dust,

Do think the jilbab is Fardh?

"*DUST*" wrote:

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

Question to Dust,

Do think the jilbab is Fardh?

yes.

Assalamu Alaikum

Sister Shabina was definately right, and her school made a huge fuss over what was only a piece of clothing.

The school defended itself saying it already offered Islamic clothing for those who wished to wear it in the form of the salwar kameez. But as the sister pointed out this garment is more of an ethnic dress, used by muslims and non muslims from the indopak regions. She felt it was obligatory to cover with a jilbab. I totally agree with her. The school made the mistake in trying to define what islamic dress was, it should have consulted the local mosques and they would havelearned about the jilbab.

I don't see how it would adversely effect the school if she wore it.

When i was at school i missed the introduction of uniforms, so i count myself lucky. But those in the lower years had to wear them. But the school was very flexible. It allowed salwar kameez, long or short skirts, trousers, headscarves, even the jilbab, and two sisters who were there up till 16+ wore the niqab without any problems from teachers. Considering I live in a city that doesn't have a huge number of muslims i think it was very accomodating and respectful towards muslims, and actually all the different faiths in our school. Special concessions weren't made for us alone, so no one complained. In fact non muslim students knew a lot about the muslim faith, ignorant journalists could learn a lot from them.

The school still allows these forms of dress, and is undergoing changes to become one of them naff superschools. I hope students are still accomodated for. I know most muslims in town still attend that school, they seem to love it.

Considering Sister Shabina comes from a town that has a high population of muslims the school should have made more of an effort to understand the needs of the different ethnic and religious groups. Here it definately failed.
:roll:

The thing was the school was kind of innocent in the case at the beggining not the end, because they did go to the community and mosque before they made any decision and they told them Shalwar Kameez would suffice, because they were thinking of teh fact that most of the girl was from the subcontinent, it would be fine, they were working on cultural need rather then religious needs.

I think that because she was associated with HT, due to the fact that her brother belong to the group, it did affect the amount of support she got. Which is a pity, don't know if they funding it though.

But as always it doesn't surprise me anymore that muslims fail to back something that would be for its benefit. The agrument whether is fardh doesn't really matter as this was a decision that would help muslims in the long run. What is wrong with using the laws of the country to gain righst for muslims. If the country allows it, it surprising why some muslims were dead against it.

ironic though the headmistress was muslim.:

"Denbigh High School's Muslim headmistress, Yasmin Bevan, and its governors were fully alert to the dangers of Islamic extremism, and they firmly desired to keep its manifestations out of the school. They knew that if Shabina's jilbab became an accepted variation on the uniform, many of the Muslim girls might well come under increasing social pressure to prove themselves "good Muslims" by wearing ever more concealing garments. Meanwhile, they would be more sharply differentiated from the non-Muslim pupils. And if thick, baggy trousers were to be deemed immodest – presumably because of the merest suggestion of legs beneath them – then might not a young girl's face also incite men to sexual thoughts? Would the next innovation in the uniform – for the truly devout – be the face-concealing burqa?"-

REF:
[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/03/06/do...

Ridiculous journalism :roll: I knew two girls at school who wore the jilbab and niqab, no one else in school wore any of these garments. This statement is so lame. So by the same cause and effect if i see the majority of girls adopting a short skirt i would feel pressurised to fit in with them? I never wore short skirts although plenty of girls did. This journo needs to give teens a bit more credibility, they may be young but they do have brains.

Also so what if she wants to go onto covering her face, how would it infringe upon the rights of anyone in or out of school. I'm not suggesting all secular schools must accept the face veil, i'm saying it's stupid to say it will damage other kids. They're basically saying this girl is extreme just coz she has made the decision to wear the jilbab, and this extremism has brain washed her to such an extent she may end up covering her face aswell, and lots of girls will be brainwashed as a result, duh! Yes all our daughters will be forced to succumb to the burqa domino effect. It starts with the jilbab and ends with a niqab :roll:

"*DUST*" wrote:

and yuit is right - the school did apparently consult some local imaams who said the shalwar kameez is fine... :roll: [size=7](stupid desis)[/size]

I don't think desi's are the only ones who hold this view.

According to many scholars any loose clothing that covers the awrah, is non-transparent, loose and modest can also get the job done.

Shalwar kameez can also come under the above mentioned category.

Q-Is the Jilbab (outer garment) Obligatory?

Answer

There have been several questions about this.

Allah Most High says:

"O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons. That is most convenient that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Most Forgiving and Most Merciful". (Surah al-Ahzab, 59).

As Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam explained in his answer:

"A jilbab [f: the Qur'anic term, translated above as "their outer garments"] is an outer garment that women must wear when emerging in front of strangers. This garment must be wide, loose, and modest and covers the body completely."

What is meant by an outer garment is something that:

covers the awrah,
is thick and non-transparent,
loose,
and modest.

This can be something that is a separate loose garment worn over one's clothes, or simply loose clothing that fulfills the abovementioned conditions, as the scholars explicitly mention.

Wassalam,
Faraz Rabbani

[url=http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/questions/QA00002154.aspx]SunniPath[/...

Reagarding whether Shabina Begum was right or not...well, she considered the Jilbaab Fard, any Muslim should rightfully stand up for what they consider obligatory in Islam.

i have to agree with dust. I've often been told salwar kameez is islamic dress, and how modest it is. Well actually it's ethnic dress, and depending how you make it, and what size you get it can be modest enough to cover the awrah i suppose. But the same could be said of the sari that is often degraded. Granted it can show off the stomach, but i never see my mothers stomach on show, she always brings the shoulder piece over the front of her body to ensure full coverage. With a shawl on top it too can look modest. But no one would ever say it were islamic dress. That's what really ticks me off about the whole thing

Having said all that i still think the jilbab is fard. Other garments can cover you modestly but not to the same extent as the jilbab.

As Sister Dust already highlighted the school clearly took an "interpretation" of what it thght was Islamic dress. It should have been open to "other interpretations", rather than giving precedence to the salwar kameez as the only option for muslims. I really can't see why such a big deal was made over a jilbab :roll:

"*DUST*" wrote:

i am not denying that this interpretation exists - my issue is with cultural desis who think 'salwar kameez' is the best form of covering or consider it 'islamic'. the girls could have worn a skirt OR shalwar kameez OR jilbab depending on their culture and interpretation of the ayah - y did the imaams have to specify 'salwar kameez'?

Of course, I don't believe that Shalwar kameez is the best form of covering...but according to many scholars it is a "Islamic dress".

In this case, I believe that the scholars just stated that a Shalwar kameez/skirt etc can also get the job done...I don't believe that they gave precedence to this dress..? :?

the scholars never said salwar kameez was islamic dress did they? I know some say as long as the clothing is loose, non transparent and covers the awrah it will suffice. This can be the salwar, skirt, loose top, english dresses, sari etc etc. To say it's islamic is going a bit too far, in my mind at least.

The early muslims in arabia wore their traditional arabic attire. The ladies didn't wear salwar kameez. They tended to wear what looks like the jilbab, but they're more fitted, and have elaborate designs. Usually the same length as jilbabs and come with trousers. Women in the arab world still wear these, they're often called jilabiyah, caftans, arabic housedresses. But no one would say this is islamic clothing as such. It's ethnic wear :?

The universal islamic attire for women seems to be the abaya or jilbab. If salwar kameez were islamic dress as suggested women other than indopak ones, would be wearing it the world over surely

:?

I can completely sympathise with Sister Shabina because when i first started wearing the hijab amongst family and cousins i'd wear it with salwar kameez but i never felt sufficiently covered. Progessing to the jilbab made me feel so much better. I didn't worry about whether the figure of my body could be seen. To me salwar kameez, and western clothes are what beautifies my body. It's something i don't want strangers seeing me in, it's not for their eyes. The jilbab helps conceal all that.

I know the jilbab can be hard to adopt, but many sisters slowly but surely do see it's benefits.

"yashmaki" wrote:

the scholars never said salwar kameez was islamic dress did they? I know some say as long as the clothing is loose, non transparent and covers the awrah it will suffice. This can be the salwar, skirt, loose top, english dresses, sari etc etc. To say it's islamic is going a bit too far, in my mind at least.

:?

Well if it fulfils the conditions of a Jilbaab then why can’t it be considered an Islamic dress?

i believe the jilbab is fard. If salwar kameez were fard it would be specifically mentioned in the Quran, it is not. If it were wajib it would be mentioned in description in the ahadith it's not. It's not just the salwar kameez, it's other ethnic wear. I wouldn't go around giving dawah telling sisters skirts are islamic clothing coz they're not. I would say you can wear a long loose skirt if you're not ready for the jilbab, because it is far more modest than something short and fitted. Obviously it's all up to the individual no one can force them to believe how important the jilbab is.

In hajj and umrah why do the majority of women adopt the jilbab/abaya? I believe its because it is far more superior in it's coverage. There are no worries, about becoming uncovered.

The scholars often interpret the word jilbab as a loose outter cloak, that covers the entire body, that should be worn whenever women emerge from the home. It's only in recent times have scholars begun to make concessions for other clothing, as long as it fits the hijab criteria. I think this is to make things easier for muslimahs in the west to practise their faith. Coz often sisters find it too much to wear a headscarf let alone a jilbab aswell. But how many of these scholars would be happy with their own wives wearing a long skirt, or just trousers with a top. Most if not all of them have their women in jilbabs coz they know it offers the best coverage.

Anyways it's for you to research and decide if the jilbab is fard, wajib or sunnah. I honestly believe it's fard after having looked into it at some depth.

"yashmaki" wrote:

i believe the jilbab is fard. If salwar kameez were fard it would be specifically mentioned in the Quran, it is not.

Anyways it's for you to research and decide if the jilbab is fard, wajib or sunnah. I honestly believe it's fard after having looked into it at some depth.

Jilbaab is Fard. I do not deny that.

I merely stated that according to Scholars the definition of Jilbaab is all encompassing. And many believe that Long skirts, dresses, shalwar kameez etc etc can fulfil the requirements of the Jilbaab.

"*DUST*" wrote:

"MuslimSister" wrote:

Of course, I don't believe that Shalwar kameez is the best form of covering...but according to many scholars it is a "Islamic dress".

In this case, I believe that the scholars just stated that a Shalwar kameez/skirt etc can also get the job done...I don't believe that they gave precedence to this dress..? :?

yes, the luton imams who were consulted by the school did specify the shalwar kameez as 'islamic dress' and so it became the school uniform. no doubt the 'many scholars' u refer to who consider the shalwar kameez 'islamic' are asians... in which case they are representing their culture instead of representing islam. :roll:
as i said i would have had no problem with them giving the option of shalwar kameez OR skirts OR jilbab as 'islamically acceptable' choices in the uniform, but instead they chose to specify one, thus excluding muslimahs who may follow different interpretations of the quranic ayaat pertaining to modesty.
.

Are we arguing over semantics’ here?

I see no difference between a dress being considered an “Islamic dress” or “Islamically acceptable”.

And the reason why “Asian” scholars would consider the shalwar kameez “Islamic” is cos its part of their culture…there isn’t anything wrong with that. My dad prefers that I wear shalwar kameez instead of skirts, just cos of cultural reasons…….to some extent everyone has an attachment with their culture, but as long as it doesn’t contradict the teachings of Islam. There’s nothing wrong with that.

But I totally agree with your point of giving precedence to the “Shalwar kameez” and cancelling out any other Islamically acceptable choices in the uniform…that’s wrong. Like you said, it should be the choice of the individual muslimah.

Ones cultural preference should NOT be dictated to others.

Salam

She has won her right to wear the veil.

British Judge had ruled that the school had denied her human rights.

The school head was sick at the judgement but had to comply, and let her wear the "abominable hijab".

Omrow

"Omrow" wrote:

Salam
The school head was sick at the judgement but had to comply, and let her wear the "abominable hijab".
Omrow

What so abominable about it?

yeah what's disgusting about wearing a jilbab? Wouldn't you rather your daughter's body is covered. If my daughter was wearing a pretty dress i'd consider that her adornment i'd rather she concealed it for the eyes of family alone. Nothing disgusting in that, modesty is most beloved to Allah (swt).

Did you not see the quotation of the words?

Just like saying Its 'great'. It means that others think that, or a sign of sarcasm.

One thing you gotta remember is that schools have a uniform. You also have to look at it from the school point of view.

The uniform is not to 'wear clothes', but to wear a certain type of clothes. Like this colour shirt, with a possible v-neck jumper, trousers etc.

We may argue about what types of Islamic dress should be allowed, or that they all should be allowed, but Only one would need to be allowed to meet the requirements, and after that the uniform limites the type pof clothing anyway...