Youngest Muslim Reverts in The World.

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"(*_Shazan" wrote:
"Constantine" wrote:
"(*_Shazan" wrote:
How much pressure is their on a Muslim in non-muslim society? We accept this because we already know this world is like a prison for us and a paradise for the non believer

So basically what you're saying is "Islam allows us to coerce and cajole non-Muslim kids because I think they do it to us,"

And did you read the original thread?

Allah guides whom he wills.

No one groomed these two sisters in accepting Islam- to make such accusations is blasphemes.

To make such accusation is Fact. They weren't groomed - they were cajoled attacked and pressured resulting in [url= syndrome[/url].

How else do you explain "oh now they can't tell if I'm white and they'll think I'm a muslim"

Allah didn't "guide" anyone, thugs did. Again, you haven't read the original thread, you never saw the original documentary - you don't know what you are talking about.

We don’t operate like Christian Evangelical sects, working tedious to increase it cult population, food for salvation is your methods not ours.

What a pathetic statement, when the sisters mature and continue to follow deen of Haq- then your statements have materialized into falseness.

Have a nice day and keep your children locked up from Muslim’s, shock horror they might accept it. Insha’Allah

"(*_Shazan" wrote:
We don’t operate like Christian Evangelical sects, working tedious to increase it cult population, food for salvation is your methods not ours.

What a pathetic statement, when the sisters mature and continue to follow deen of Haq- then your statements have materialized into falseness.

Have a nice day and keep your children locked up from Muslim’s, shock horror they might accept it. Insha’Allah

Okay, so Aryans was too unbelievable an off topic redirect so you switched to Evangelicals? Are you capable of answering questions or do you just thrown "Racism!" "Islamophobia!" "Imperialism!" cards at random?

lol actually food for salvation is precisely your method. The Imam offered them food and a chance to be saved from daily beatings and intimidation. Great deal really - no pepperoni though that would just mean they could be called "porkies" some more at school.

If you actually watched the doc you'd know what that means.

Stockholm Syndrome doesn't go away with age. You still don't know what your talking about since you never saw the full documentary - you're just mindlessly defending the deliberate targeting of our children because you believe in it.

Nah, it's "keep your children away from Muslims - the Muslims might beat them up and offer them pizza until they convert"

Of course you'd defend this stuff - it's not your kids, and the best way to destroy us all is to go for our children.

Fascism.

Well once again that was a refreshing conversation. So - to get back to my original question, 6 months ago yall said it was unislamic, just those people and muslims don't believe in this stuff.

But today we see the exact same documentary with about 20 minutes cut jumping around the internet being praised on high by every Islamic forum it runs across, how do you explain that? There doesn't seems to be any objection when it's between you, but to our faces it's whatever pleases us. So why should non-Muslims feel safe leaving their kids around Muslims? Does the Qur'an or sunna say anything about this whatsoever?

Other than that impressively insulting "children are born muslims only parents make them non-muslims" line that muslims repeat ad nauseum - especially in light of this documentary.

"Constantine" wrote:

Okay, so Aryans was too unbelievable an off topic redirect so you switched to Evangelicals? Are you capable of answering questions or do you just thrown "Racism!" "Islamophobia!" "Imperialism!" cards at random?

lol actually food for salvation is precisely your method. The Imam offered them food and a chance to be saved from daily beatings and intimidation. Great deal really - no pepperoni though that would just mean they could be called "porkies" some more at school.

.

I refuse to neither drift with you nor fuel your already burning fire

Where in the video does it show the brother in the Pizza shop is an Imam, this is your mind playing a great deception on you. She recited the opening of the Quran and the brother was impressed by her steadfastness and offered to buy her pizza, were is the harm in that, its nothing more then a good gesture and warm hospitality shown to a fellow believer

I’ve already said I wont watch that documentary- it's pointless to bring this up with me, and it was pointless to bring it up again. If you feel very passionate against this kind of muslim behavior then report it to the school governors and local authority that England must remain land of Christians and preferably the white type.

What is wrong in praising someone who enters Islam, no different then wishing them eternal paradise- lesser examples like happy birthday- seem like you are the only one who is irate about this, I hope all that hate doesn’t consume you.

Definition of Muslim is one who submits to Allah- used in the correct context; everyone is born as a Muslim- true indeed Subhaan’Allah

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

I refuse to neither drift with you nor fuel your already burning fire

Ooo, now that's an interesting twist. Aryanism and Evangelicalism didn't work, I was expecting "American Imperialism" next.

The original topic is, who the hell do you guys think you are to target children with your proslytizing? Med's response: "We're Muslims, better than everybody else so we'll do whatever we want," you're response... oh wait... you don't have one. You haven't commented on the issue at all - you've simply defended the Islamic community for attacking these children and tried to intimate that I'm angry because I'm racist or evangelical, yadda yadda.

So answer the question if you don't want to "drift"

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Where in the video does it show the brother in the Pizza shop is an Imam, this is your mind playing a great deception on you. She recited the opening of the Quran and the brother was impressed by her steadfastness and offered to buy her pizza, were is the harm in that, its nothing more then a good gesture and warm hospitality shown to a fellow believer

Have you seen the documentary in its entirety? No. You haven't. Do you actually know the context of any of this? No you dont. So what is your point? That he's hospitable for throwing her treats when she does tricks for fear of the heel?

Give me a break.

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I’ve already said I wont watch that documentary- pointless bring this up with me, it was pointless bring it up original a few months ago. If you feel very passionate against this kind of muslim behavior then report it to the school governors and local authority that England must remain land of Christians and preferably the white type.

There we go with poor little Shazan being attacked by the vicious white christian, because it's not like this is about the safety of non-Muslim children? No no, this is about Shazan's laundry list of injustices committed against him by evil white people.

Oh yea, and if Muslims want to attack white children that's okay since it makes up for the 1950s, when Shazan was personally attacked by white mobs.

Right.

"(*_Shazan" wrote:
What is wrong in praising someone who enters Islam, no different then wishing them eternal paradise- lesser examples like happy birthday- seem like you are the only one who is irate about this, I hope all that hate doesn’t consume you.

What is wrong is forcing children to hate their religion and even the color of their skin - to score some points on the convert board so that you can feel more secure about Islamic superiority at the end of the day. Of course I'm angry - and of course I absolutely hate any Muslim that believes this is right and engages in it. It's a cultural assault, an assault on our families and an assault on our children born out of a fascist belief you are superior and masters of the world.

You are the BNP in green.

First off when Bro Shazaan first posted this I was like: "Woah, COOL!!!" Why? because I'm on 56k, and I was trustring the comments I read.

So I'm going off the second hand information I've read, and as far I can ascertain Med agrees witht he facts off What Constantine has said. (He just differs on the ethical judgement of the whole affair.)

"Med" wrote:
"Dawud" wrote:
. Med ask your heart, do you really think this was the rioght way to act?

My brother those people ask their hearts who have purified it and are free from disease and have controlled their nafs. The hadeeth upon which you have based this advice for me is referring to those pure hearts - not to those who are diseased and who no control over their nafs - hence what my heart says is irrelevant as it is not mu'tabar.

I think Shaykh AbdulQadir Jeelani rahimahullah wrote a treatise on this hadeeth - inshaALLAH if I find it I'll let u knw.

I didn't mean the Precious Hadeeth shareef. Masha Allah Med, your head's in a good place that thought of the Blessed Ahadeeth Shareef. I just meant simple as, the basis of Human Judgement, what does your God given conscience say about this?

"Med" wrote:

See some people think that saying Islaam is superior and muslims are superior is arrogance and is rude. Well thats a matter of opinion but we know from the Aathar of Sahaabah Karaam and from the Books of Fiqah that Islaam IS superior and the way the Sahaabah Karaam alayhim ridhwaan behaved infront of the forces of Kufr are testament to this.

We believe Islam is superior than kufr. We believe Islam is better because it is a Noble Religeon PURE from God, i.e. it enobles a person, Insha Allah T'ala may we all be Noble. To me those children were treated ignobaly, in a way not befitting to The Way of Salaam.

"Med" wrote:

So I would say I have followed in the way of our Pious Predecessors where kufr was dishonoured and humiliated and the Religion was raised.

I don't think the Religeon was raised, I think in your Zeal (and its good to root for Team Islam) you supported oppression and tyranny. Which is why we have to be carefull not blindly support something because it involves what appear to be Islamically desirable ends if it is brought about by ignoble means.

Regards that last quote, I believe Islam is against Kufr, not the kaafir. We want the Kaafir to be a winner in this life and the next, we desire peace for them becasue they were fashioned by the care of our Lord Most High.

As an aside, I really respect you Med that you want to stay free from any hypocrisy. You say you want to follow in the way of The Salaf as-Salih RA and if you here something practised by them not practised now, you want to re-invorate it. Which is great, but I think you should take an anthropology course, find out about Jahil Arabia, and the cultural values, norms and morals of the surrounding area prior to and after Islam. I think it would benefit you alot Insha Allah T'ala.

"Med" wrote:

Interesting how some are so weak as to object on a muslims statements which are based on the Quran and Sunnah and ignore the abuse of a kafir for an Imam. Im sure if I went off on one abt dodgy imams and deviants the mods here would be rushing to ban me - but wen it comes to a kafir abusing an imam - its ok cos he's . .. . ? what?

Not because he's a kaafir, because he happens to defending the cause of humanity...which is what we (including the Imam in that 'we') should be doing. The Imaam should have went into the schools where the kids were being picked on for being white and taught the agressors the error of their ways. And I don't mean that in the Al-Paccino sense, I mean it in 'The Spirit of Islam' sense.

Yes The Spirit of Islam that wonderful banner of sakeena in the Hearts of Pious predessors RA, their inheritance for us, and our Salvation.

Humanity, Peace, co-existance, Brotherhood, Moral and ethical transformation, innocence and virtue and purity.[b] If John Locke had known about The Spirit of Islam, perhaps the pr-amble to The US Constitution would have been The Kalimah.[/b]

Yes I actually wrote that.

Med remember that Pact made in Jahilliyyah by those [b]"Who love Justice"[/b] Remember Med.

May Allah SWT have mercy on us all and forgive us all and Guide us all, and make us of The Happy and Sucsessful in this life and the life hereafter. And this is but a small thing for Allah, verily Allah SWT has complete Power and Dominion over all things.
Ameen Thum'ameen Biggrin

Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.

Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes

Dawud bruv ameen.

I aint seen that video but my comments were on the basis that bringing kids to islaam is a positive thing. And yes we want kuffar to come to islam - that is our duty thats why I wrote the Sahaabah Karaam debased KUFR and not kafir bruv.

Anyhoo - lets look objectively. A people who reject what ALLAH says (viz reject the Quran) and attribute such lies to ALLAH that He ta'ala has a son!! If such people can utter such lies on ALLAH and can reject His Pure words then to reject mine is nothing.

But for the benefit of our other members. What is Islams stance on children and da'wah?

Everyone knows of Sayyidina Ali radhiyallahu anh. Who does not know of his high standing in Islaam and his close and affectionate relationship with Sayyidina Rasulullahi salallahu alayhi wa sallam? And it is also wellknown that he radhiyallahu anh accepted Islaam before attaining maturity - did Nabi salallahu alayhi wa sallam - ma'aadhALLAH - perform a breach of trust with Abu Talib or did He salallahu alayhi wa sallam propogate the Truth and benefit Sayyidina Ali radhiyallah anh?

What of Sayyidina Mu'adh and Sayyidina Ma'aadh radhiyallahu anhuma - the two slayers of Abu Jahl? They too were of tender age in the Battle of Badr.

And again Sayyidina Ibn Abbas radhiyallahu anhuma - the cousin brother of Hadrat Nabi salallahu alayhi wa sallam. It is common knowledge that Sayyidina Ibn Abbas radhiyallahu anhuma accepted Islaam very early on in, and was still a very young youth when Nabi salallahu alayhi wa sallam departed from this world. Further Ibn Abbas radhiyallahu anhuma accepted Islaam before his father - Sayyidina Abbas radhiyallah anh. What of that?

The list can go on and on where many Sahaabah Karaam alayhim ridhwaan accepted Islaam before attaining shari' maturity and in opposition to the wishes of their family and tribe.

For further information I refer you to Hayaat e Sahaabah by Shaykhul Hadeeth Mawlana Muhammad Zakariyyah Kandhalwi rahimahullah.

Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar

"Constantine" wrote:

Ooo, now that's an interesting twist. Aryanism and Evangelicalism didn't work, I was expecting "American Imperialism" next.

You have already muddled this topic by merging two documentaries together, but the facts I stated are true, don’t have to agree I’m not asking you to.

Imperialism! You’re hilarious, do you happen any relatives employed at Hillaburton?

Quote:
The original topic is, who the hell do you guys think you are to target children with your proslytizing? Med's response: "We're Muslims, better than everybody else so we'll do whatever we want," you're response... oh wait... you don't have one. You haven't commented on the issue at all - you've simply defended the Islamic community for attacking these children and tried to intimate that I'm angry because I'm racist or evangelical, yadda yadda.

So answer the question if you don't want to "drift"

Firstly, who is targeting whom? Certainty you wont see any dawah networks outside of school gates, “grooming” as you claim. Maybe that old fact, of Islam is spreading to all corners of the world is a fact cannot be disputed, is that painful for someone like you to digest? Christians are reverting to Islam, and that brings a smile to my face every time- a smile not to goat or used to debate statistical points with but simply we Muslims are a minority in the west and it’s always pleasant to see indigenous people embracing Islam. Despite all your efforts to hinder and taint this phenomenon, your words are weak and Islam will continue to spread like wild fire with or without you.

Quote:
Have you seen the documentary in its entirety? No. You haven't. Do you actually know the context of any of this? No you dont. So what is your point? That he's hospitable for throwing her treats when she does tricks for fear of the heel?

Give me a break.

Time Frame: 13:49

Where is this imam you speak off? Attacking someone good nature is below you.

You have already insinuated and generalise how muslim community act’s towards non-brown skinned folks- this point alone it not worth debating with, since you don’t live in the UK and believe mishmash documentaries to portray nothing but the truth, neither is such conjecturing material a true reflection of our humble communities.

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Quote:
There we go with poor little Shazan being attacked by the vicious white christian, because it's not like this is about the safety of non-Muslim children? No no, this is about Shazan's laundry list of injustices committed against him by evil white people.

Oh yea, and if Muslims want to attack white children that's okay since it makes up for the 1950s, when Shazan was personally attacked by white mobs.

Since your ignorant of our past history in this island, and showed little or none sympathy towards ethnic minority plight to integrate in this country, it’s difficult for me to accept any creditable statement you make! it would be asking to much off you if you carried out some research and learn the history and social structures of "life England for Foreigners ", again you base your arguments on one documentary of poor white folk being harassed by Asians, ethnic tensions does exist here and in the states, I wont deny that nor would I exacerbated it. Up until now, I thought Afro-American had put its miserable past behind it- that was until hurricane in Louisiana – the slave mentality is still prevalent today.

Oh......And you’re a condescending patriot; ambitious to fly again, lets hope you don’t return in a body bag.

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What is wrong is forcing children to hate their religion and even the color of their skin - to score some points on the convert board so that you can feel more secure about Islamic superiority at the end of the day. Of course I'm angry - and of course I absolutely hate any Muslim that believes this is right and engages in it. It's a cultural assault, an assault on our families and an assault on our children born out of a fascist belief you are superior and masters of the world..

That is a perfect description of Judaism and the Nazi; not Islam :).

What was your question?

That’s rather straight forward, know one can be forced ato convert/revert to Islam against their will, such intentions is only known by Allah and Allah solely. But I dismiss your claims that Child was groomed into becoming a muslim rather it was her own free will, she could have taken the same path as her brother but chose to quench her thirst and learn about Islam.

United Kingdom has the highest teenage pregnancy birth rates in Europe, children are seemly out of control, new labor are speaking off it’s new respect agenda, a campaign to tackle anti social problems among the youth, no other way of life expect Islam has answered to social ills of this country.

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You are the BNP in green

The above, a shambolic attempt to muster a polemic argument in comparing me to Green BNP, your defense of this victim is exactly how the fascist BNP will spin such a story. Wink

Another reason for you to cry:

Quote:
Shaykh Daoud Sharafuddin Rosser, Amir of the Association for British Muslims (ABM); Fellow of the Royal Asiatic Society (FRAS); Member of the Chartered Institute of Journalists (MCIJ); Alumnus of London School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), and the University of Kent at Canterbury (UKC); Former career officer of the British Regular Army; Studied fiq'h and tariqah in pondoks in Malaysia with various shaykhs, and further in Turkey; follower of the Shafi'i madh'hab and the Naqshbandi Order.

The ABM is a social or cultural, and not a political body; and Membership or Support is a cultural not an ethnic expression. We maintain that the "British Way-of-Life" and "British culture" can be compatible with Islam, and that all Muslims living in Britain should seek to realise this in their daily lives.

[b]The aims of the ABM are: [/b]

Quote:
a) to define a "British Islam" as an authentic cultural expression of Islam
as a "system of life transactions";

b) to spread Islam among the British peoples, teach the Shari'ah, and improve the stock of knowledge of all;

c) to bring British Muslim muhtadiyin (those guided to Islam) and their families into the ummah (community of Muslims) and provide suhbah (instructive companionship) for them;

d) to represent the now British descendants of the immigrant Muslims;

e) to represent the particular interests, aspirations, and welfare of British muhtadiyin and to speak and act for them at any level, and in any forum;

f) to help the Muslim communities in Britain in any way in which British Muslims may be especially fitted.

Any more question?

don’t hesitate to ask [/quote]

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

Oh......And you’re a condescending patriot; ambitious to fly again, lets hope you don’t return in a body bag.

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool.
:twisted:

Shazan bruv yr hilarious Biggrin

Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar

"Constantine" wrote:
Well once again that was a refreshing conversation. So - to get back to my original question, 6 months ago yall said it was unislamic, just those people and muslims don't believe in this stuff.

.

u shudnt conclude based on a bunch of muslims u come across in a couple of forums on the internet

every muslim is different-dont make conlusions of Islam based on the narrow minded view of a few loud mouthed arrogant muslims

if it did happen the way ur claiming- "immature kids were were offered pizza to convert to Islam"

then thats wrong

maturarity is VITAL for accountiblity to take place in islam

also if a kid dies before puberty-muslim or not they go straight to heaven

if Imams did bully kids into accepting Islam then thats wrong

the only thing i'd like to know is if the kids converted back after they matured and grew up a a bit

"there is no compulsion in Islam"

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

You have already muddled this topic by merging two documentaries together, but the facts I stated are true, don’t have to agree I’m not asking you to.

Imperialism! You’re hilarious, do you happen any relatives employed at Hillaburton?

No the facts you stated are false, the documentaries are the same, unless you are idiotic enough to suggest there are two physically identical Gallagher families in Manningham with daughters named Ashlene and Amy.

Yet another exposition of your complete ignorance over the topic you are discussing.

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Firstly, who is targeting whom? Certainty you wont see any dawah networks outside of school gates, “grooming” as you claim. Maybe that old fact, of Islam is spreading to all corners of the world is a fact cannot be disputed, is that painful for someone like you to digest? Christians are reverting to Islam, and that brings a smile to my face every time- a smile not to goat or used to debate statistical points with but simply we Muslims are a minority in the west and it’s always pleasant to see indigenous people embracing Islam. Despite all your efforts to hinder and taint this phenomenon, your words are weak and Islam will continue to spread like wild fire with or without you.

Spare me the self righteous "reversion" speech, we're targeting about your support for the direct and belligerent targeting of non-Muslim children, as in the documentary. The children were bullied coerced and attacked, they "reverted" under the targeting of an Imam who gave them pizza and a way out of "being white," you cannot deny that, here are some quotes from the doc to think about

"If you're white and you ain't hard you're fucked." - Jake
"They would call me 'white bastard' and we would get into a fight." - Jake

"if you are white, no one can see your face, so they think you are
Muslim." - Amy (on why she wears that Hijab).

This is a deliberate attack on the childrens' not only religious and cultural identity - but racial identity. The Islamic population promised these "porkies" that while they could never be cured of their "whiteness" at least they could hide it by giving into their pressure to convert - no matter what angle you look at this the Muslim community put constant racist and supremecist pressure on these kids to convert - forcing them to hate their own identities.

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Time Frame: 13:49

Where is this imam you speak off? Attacking someone good nature is below you.

WATCH THE ENTIRE DOCUMENTARY. How much clearer can I get?

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You have already insinuated and generalise how muslim community act’s towards non-brown skinned folks- this point alone it not worth debating with, since you don’t live in the UK and believe mishmash documentaries to portray nothing but the truth, neither is such conjecturing material a true reflection of our humble communities.

This community you are so proud of forcefully converted a 9 year old and a 12 year old. There are two levels of depravity involved, 1. The deliberate targeting of children and 2. The deliberate use of coercive tactics. You haven't even seen the documentary, from what lofty perch do you assume to say anything on the subject?

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Since your ignorant of our past history in this island, and showed little or none sympathy towards ethnic minority plight to integrate in this country, it’s difficult for me to accept any creditable statement you make! it would be asking to much off you if you carried out some research and learn the history and social structures of "life England for Foreigners ", again you base your arguments on one documentary of poor white folk being harassed by Asians, ethnic tensions does exist here and in the states, I wont deny that nor would I exacerbated it. Up until now, I thought Afro-American had put its miserable past behind it- that was until hurricane in Louisiana – the slave mentality is still prevalent today.

lol wow, that's on target. I don't particularly care what the status of minorities were in the 50s, nor does Lousiania concern me in the present discussion they have nothing to do with the crimes committed against children by these ethnic minorities in the present day; committed out of a complete hatred of their white, non-Muslim neighbors.

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Oh......And you’re a condescending patriot; ambitious to fly again, lets hope you don’t return in a body bag.

Somehow I get the feeling that's precisely what you hope for - one less kaffir right?

Since my personal life is so fascinating to you, I cannot fly in any branch of the military ever again, my flight status was permanently revoked when I destroyed a training jet several years ago. The actual reason I rejoined USAF was to sign up for JAG corps to try warcriminals after the Haditha massacre.

And out of complete curiousity there are very few people on this forum or elsewhere that know anything about me jumping back into a the force, you were not one of them. How did you come by this information?

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That is a perfect description of Judaism and the Nazi; not Islam :).

And that's the perfect description of anti-semitism and racism. Did you really think you were going to impress anyone here with a jab at Jews?

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What was your question?

You've got a scroll bar, use it.

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That’s rather straight forward, know one can be forced ato convert/revert to Islam against their will, such intentions is only known by Allah and Allah solely. But I dismiss your claims that Child was groomed into becoming a muslim rather it was her own free will, she could have taken the same path as her brother but chose to quench her thirst and learn about Islam.

lol dismiss whatever you want, you haven't seen the entire documentary ergo you don't know what you are talking about.

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United Kingdom has the highest teenage pregnancy birth rates in Europe, children are seemly out of control, new labor are speaking off it’s new respect agenda, a campaign to tackle anti social problems among the youth, no other way of life expect Islam has answered to social ills of this country.

Yea because everything worked out so well in all the other Muslim countries in the world today. I don't really care how you think Islam is going to save the world - what I care about is how you intend to see that happen. Deliberately targeting children and pressuring them with violence and rewards for "good behavior" is barbaric.

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The above, a shambolic attempt to muster a polemic argument in comparing me to Green BNP, your defense of this victim is exactly how the fascist BNP will spin such a story. Wink

I invite the comparison quite easily, the BNP is a racist organization that uses pressure tactics to eradicate "alien cultures," and you're a racist and antisemitic that is perfectly cool with Muslims using pressure tactics against children to quench the inferior kaffir culture.

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Another reason for you to cry:

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Shaykh Daoud Sharafuddin Rosser, Amir of the Association for British Muslims (ABM); Fellow of the Royal Asiatic Society (FRAS); Member of the Chartered Institute of Journalists (MCIJ); Alumnus of London School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), and the University of Kent at Canterbury (UKC); Former career officer of the British Regular Army; Studied fiq'h and tariqah in pondoks in Malaysia with various shaykhs, and further in Turkey; follower of the Shafi'i madh'hab and the Naqshbandi Order.

Right, aside from the complete off topicness of this, I don't even understand what the relevance is to the "reason to cry" comment... an organization for British Muslims?

Is there something in here I should be looking for?

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The ABM is a social or cultural, and not a political body; and Membership or Support is a cultural not an ethnic expression. We maintain that the "British Way-of-Life" and "British culture" can be compatible with Islam, and that all Muslims living in Britain should seek to realise this in their daily lives.

[b]The aims of the ABM are: [/b]

Quote:
a) to define a "British Islam" as an authentic cultural expression of Islam
as a "system of life transactions";

b) to spread Islam among the British peoples, teach the Shari'ah, and improve the stock of knowledge of all;

c) to bring British Muslim muhtadiyin (those guided to Islam) and their families into the ummah (community of Muslims) and provide suhbah (instructive companionship) for them;

d) to represent the now British descendants of the immigrant Muslims;

e) to represent the particular interests, aspirations, and welfare of British muhtadiyin and to speak and act for them at any level, and in any forum;

f) to help the Muslim communities in Britain in any way in which British Muslims may be especially fitted.

What is the relevance of any of this? - So long as Muslims 1. Avoid brainwashing children, and 2. Don't abuse them into converting, I think we'll all get along just fine.

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Any more question?

don’t hesitate to ask

What was up with that comment about Jews?
Why do you immediately victimize Muslims or shift the blaim to others when people question Muslims' bad behavior?
Have you seen the entire documentary yet?
Why do you have opinions on documentaries you've only seen part of?
Do you think it's okay for Muslims to deliberately target non-Muslim children?
Do you believe pressure tactics like those from the documentary are acceptable?
Would you stop a Muslim from targeting a non-Muslim child for conversion?
Did med inform you of my return to the USAF or did you find this from some other source?
Why did you respond with "Israelites" in the other thread when Beast informed you it was anti-semitic in that context?

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:
"Constantine" wrote:
Well once again that was a refreshing conversation. So - to get back to my original question, 6 months ago yall said it was unislamic, just those people and muslims don't believe in this stuff.

.

u shudnt conclude based on a bunch of muslims u come across in a couple of forums on the internet

every muslim is different-dont make conlusions of Islam based on the narrow minded view of a few loud mouthed arrogant muslims

if it did happen the way ur claiming- "immature kids were were offered pizza to convert to Islam"

then thats wrong

maturarity is VITAL for accountiblity to take place in islam

also if a kid dies before puberty-muslim or not they go straight to heaven

if Imams did bully kids into accepting Islam then thats wrong

the only thing i'd like to know is if the kids converted back after they matured and grew up a a bit

"there is no compulsion in Islam"

Here's the thing, last time when you had the full documentary exposing just why we are watching the Gallaghers in this particular neighborhood and we saw the background school beatings and the all the boundaries that were recklessly crossed every Muslim (with the exception of Med) on this forum said "oh that's bad" - and we even found a thread from when it originally aired with the previous generation of Revivalers condemning the practices of the Imam and Muslims in the neighborhood.

But when you change the title, cut out some of the more jarring material, but leave intimations that the children were under pressure and the Imam deliberately encouraged this Muslims celebrate it. What is particularly disturbing is the number of Muslims on various forums repeating the line "parents make children non-Muslims." - First off what is that? Is it from Hadiths... the Qur'an? Where are all of these people getting this doctrine from?

Next, those celebrations tell me that Muslims approve in theory with deliberately targeting children with proselytization, and that with the addition of that comment there may actually be a doctrinal backing for this extremely unsettling practice.

But whether it is Islam itself, a few Muslims or Muslims in general engaging in these kinds of pracises the most alarming thing is that it does happen and I'm not going to be less angry because some or even a majority find it as unnerving as I do - that's not action. Action means taking deliberate methods to stop or prevent this kind of activity - and action can come from either enforceable doctrines or general conduct.

And that's the most important of my questions, Why should I as a Non-Muslim feel comfortable with my kids around Muslims, if I know there are a significant number of Muslims that think this kind of stuff is okay? Is there any reason to believe that other Muslims would prevent this from happening? In the case of "the last white kids" the entire community was complicit in one way or another, and now that it's reception amongst Muslims worldwide via the internet has been so counterintuitive the only people I see saying this is wrong are the majority of people [i]at this forum[/i].

Is there an Islamic ruling on converting kids?

I can understand actually teaching them about Islam. But actually converting? I would have thought that should be when they are adults, and capable of accepting Islam without being pushed into it?

(and Constantine - the Islamic principle is everyone is born pure. And they will follow their parents in religion may be in hadith, but its also common sense... Noone will teach their kids to follow something they do not believe.)

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

I wasn’t even aware that such practices existed until I watched this documentary.

Kids are naïve, easily influenced, incredibly impressionable and very innocent. No teacher/Imam should abuse their power by trying to get young kids to convert to Islam.

I don’t see the point in converting an immature mind, kids that age believe anything you tell them…whether they understand it or not…I don’t understand how it worked though, since young kids are with their parents 80% of the time.

Even when non Muslim’s attend Islamic classes/attend mosques for educational purposes or even express an interest in Islam by asking Imams/Muslims questions…I never see the importance of conversion stressed upon them.

This dawah method is the exception and not the norm….this is not how most people accept Islam.

BTW Dave, this forum or any other forum in the net is not representative of how most Muslims think....Most Imams/teachers/scholars and even students of Islam do not waste their time with forum.

Simple - if a child has imaan and accepts islaam which munafiq dares to say that he should wait?

Sayyidina Ali, Sayyidina Mu'aadh, Sayyidina Ma'aadh, Sayyidina Ibn Abbas radhiyallahu ta'ala alayhim ajmaeen accepted islaam before attaining maturity. Either take them out of islaam in their childhood years and only accept their imaan from maturity or maintain silence on converting children.

What - did our islaam only come for the adults?

Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar

Converting to Islam is a huge thing. The punishment for leaving Islam is death.

Due to this reason conversion should be based on knowledge, certainty, acceptance, submission, and sincerity. This is one thing that is stressed to all adults that wish to accept Islam in my Mosque.

Immature children are unable to realise the enormity of what they have taken on, due to this reason many Mosque Imams (or in your words “Munafiqs) stress maturity before they wish to accept Islam.

ts not only that. Its that you are not allowed to push someone to accept Islam.

It has to be a free choice.

Brbery, or potential bribery does not make it an ope choice. Even if the person chooses for the right reasons, it still leaves questions.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Who the hell has said bribery and coercion is jaiz? Keep your assumptions to yourself Muslim Sis and Admin.

Who has said that kids who are mentally immature are to be converted? Keep your assumptions to yourself again.

My point is generally that if a child has imaan and accepts islaam then whoever dares to object on that is a jahil. End of. No1s ctalking about slipping a few bars of snickers and promsie of a trip to alton towers to convert - if a child in his/her heart has accepted Islaam and they accept the da'wah then if any1 sees that as wrong then tell these people to go and wipe away the pages of history where the Sahaabah Karaam alayhim ridhwaans' conversions in childhood are mentioned. When they have done that and rejected that part of Islaam - then let them come and talk. Otherwise maintain silence.

And MuslimSis - I didnt expecte anything better from you. I didnt refer to any imam or any imam generally as a munafiq. Read my post again and look at it in its context. Surprising how you managed to interpret and analyse my post yet when Dave quite clearly has debased and insulted an IMAM IN SPECIFIC - she sits with her fingers idle.

Thats the problem with some today.

Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar

I have nothing against children converting to Islam.

Infact I'm for it. I think its great.

I'm not for brain washing/pressurizing/expoiting or ignobaly taking advantage of children.

If the Imam wanted the children to convert, he should have went staright to their first point of Islmaic contact. Their Muslim peers. I think he should have instructed them to behave Islamically, to try and act in a noble manner, for actions speak louder than words.

You speak of Sayyidena Ali AS. I accept that and also speak of Sayyidena Zayd ibn Thabbit RA. The sweet Servant of The Holy Prophet SAW was bought before The Holy Prophet SAW before The Holy House of God and before those to whom he owed filial piety.
Sayyedena Zayd RA was given the choice to return to his family whom He RA loved and and who had cherished him as their son and noble clansman.

Sayyedena Zayd RA responded "I have seen things from this Man, whereby I cannot leave him." Here referring to our Prohpet SAW.

He RA, chose to be the Servant of The Prophet SAW by his own free will rather than 'freedom' with his RA family.

That day The Prophet SAW made took the status of servant from him RA and formaly bestowed that of adopted son upon Sayyedena Zayd RA instead.

How could Zayd RA respond this way without some maturity. He was mature, may be not mature enough in terms of can a person get married. Certyainly though mature enough to make decisions of monumental magnitude. Med, this is what I was talking about when I suggested anthropology. Today in Britain, we have childhood, adolescence and then adulthood in the early twenties.

from the age of 0-2 you arte phgysically dependant completely on those around you, the Asbab from Ar-Rabbul 'Aalameen.

Then 2-9 you are completely immature in the sense of mental and judgemental faculties.

Then from 9-11/12 you are childish and immature in the sense you do not have the qualities of a mature person. Mainly those qualities of Character, but certainly you have maturity of mental faculties if not judgement.

puberty to early twenties, you are on and off mature depending on the responsibilities placed upon you, and and how irresponsible it would be to adopt an attitude of immaturity.

In Arabia in about 600 AD you hade the first stage, and some of the second stage. At 7 years old The arabs believed a sense of intellect became present in a person and they [i]could[/i] exercise some responsibility. Some 8 or 9 year olds would take goats to the areas of grazing and watch over them with responsibility. It was also at this age that boys began to learn the martial arts.

The third stage was completely non-existant, and at puberty a person could literally get married.

Living in a Nomadic society living in direct contact with the Earth made people mature fairly quickly. Adolescence was introduce around the time of the rennaissance (I think, may even later than that) and did not exist previously.

So these youngsters RA were shown Islam in the actions of the early Muslims, who were [u]not generally[/u] in positions of trust as the Mushrikeen did not trust them.

They RA had no incentive to choose Islam and accept it other than it appealing to them on a spiritual level. The children in the documentary were clearly co-erccced.

NO OFFENSE to the children in the documentary, but it is quite often the case that the one co-ercced into Islma has some hypocrcisy in them or becomes a hyppocrute. In Mecca there was no incentive to become Muslim and so no hyppocrites; in Madina there was a percieved political advantage to becoming Muslim and so the ayats warning of hypocrisy were revealed.

Islam is never forced upon someone, when it is applied according to The Qur'an and Sunnah.

The spirit of Islam is very important, I think it is the Usool of Deen. In this age where sects are becoming apparant and numerous, when ignorance is manifesting itself in Muslims, I think we need to become familiar with The Usool of our Deen or else ask ourselves...What are we following?

Let us not be of those who say "we follow this because we saw our fathers before us doing it." Astaghfirullah. May we be instead of those who hope for Truth, Peace and Love.

If one hopes for those things, I personally don't think they will find a purer satisfaction, than the repose Islam.

Biggrin [i]"Don't frown, you never know when someone is falling in love with your smile."[/i]

Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.

Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes

"Med" wrote:
I didnt refer to any imam or any imam generally as a munafiq. Read my post again and look at it in its context. Surprising how you managed to interpret and analyse my post yet when Dave quite clearly has debased and insulted an IMAM IN SPECIFIC - she sits with her fingers idle.

Thats the problem with some today.

Its nice that you didn't call any Imaam munaafiq.

Dave said (after one take back) 'Uneducated' and 'Trash'

If is ascertions regarding the facts of the documentary are correct, then I fear he may be correct on the issue of education. I prefer not to call people trash. Danny Devito in the film 'Twins' did not like it when he found out he was 'genetic trash', words are big things.

If I was criticise Dave I would say, "be gentle with your words, as you saw from 'The Last White kids' words are big things, let us not utter enourmities."

Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.

Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes

mashaALLAH some gud posts Dawud bruv. I too dont think it is of much significance for immature(mentally) kids to accept islaam - my point was and is that if children understand islaam and what it is and have accepted it then it is correct islamically and morally.

mashaALLAH at the incident regarding Sayyidina Zayd radhiyallahu anh.

Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar

"Med" wrote:
Simple - if a child has imaan and accepts islaam which munafiq dares to say that he should wait?

If I misunderstood who you're calling a Munafiq then please correct me.

You said "Which Munafiq dares to say that he should wait"

I know Imam's who say that immature/young children should wait.

"MuslimSister" wrote:
"Med" wrote:
Simple - if a child has imaan and accepts islaam which munafiq dares to say that he should wait?

If I misunderstood who you're calling a Munafiq then please correct me.

You said "Which Munafiq dares to say that he should wait"

I know Imam's who say that immature/young children should wait.

I have corrected you once before and I do it again. I wasnt referring to any1 specifically - you put one comment and replaced my word munafiq with mosque imams. Where have I put the connection between mosque imams and munafiqs? This is from you.

Your mawqif comes out sooner or later. mashaALLAH

Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar

Right....so basically, you believe that anyone who claims that children should wait are Munafiq's however, you would rather not pin point that insult to anyone in particular.

Understood.

I'm sure those who fall in the above category know that they're are being called Munafiqs.

Make of it what you will.

salaam.

Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar

"Dawud" wrote:
"Med" wrote:
I didnt refer to any imam or any imam generally as a munafiq. Read my post again and look at it in its context. Surprising how you managed to interpret and analyse my post yet when Dave quite clearly has debased and insulted an IMAM IN SPECIFIC - she sits with her fingers idle.

Thats the problem with some today.

Dave said (after one take back) 'Uneducated' and 'Trash'

If is ascertions regarding the facts of the documentary are correct, then I fear he may be correct on the issue of education. I prefer not to call people trash. Danny Devito in the film 'Twins' did not like it when he found out he was 'genetic trash', words are big things.

."

I agree with you.

I havent been following this thread word to word so I missed Dave's comments, however if the Imam's have been bribing young children to convert to Islam then their level of education is questionable however, I wouldnt go as far as calling them "trash".

"MuslimSister" wrote:

I havent been following this thread word to word so I missed Dave's comments, however if the Imam's have been bribing young children to convert to Islam then their level of education is questionable however, I wouldnt go as far as calling them "trash".

I’ve already proven the documentary I posted, no one bribe the young sister with pizza. Here goes again...... the sister recited the opening surah and the brother was impressed and as a good gesture he offered both the sister and her brother (whom is not a muslim or shown any interest in Islam) free food, no where does the film mention the brother in the pizza shop is an imam, no where in the documentary does it show the girls have been groomed, quit the contrary they have took it upon themselves to learn about Islam not under the guidance of ulema.

[b]Read Med above post, for anyone to doubt the sincerity of their conversion [/b]

i'm lost for words - disgusted and ashamed. Muslims really do not need to spread Islam in this way. this kind of irresponsible behaviour may land us in great peril and we may lose the religion altogether. (it may be entrusted to another nation better then ourselves)

my blood would also boil if our children were being lead into christianity by community leaders just to escape inequality

the imams responsiblilty as a good Muslim was to stop the bullying and talk to the bullies

there is no excuse nor any religious precedent for this type of behaviour in Islam - for goodness sakes when did the great Muslims of the past trick - cajole or manipulate anyone into accepting Islam let alone children!!

i know some have said that none of this took place and the children came themselves - but for goodness sakes look at the context under which they did, fear - is that acceptable? i'm a Muslim and no it is not acceptable in the least.

i am not a bully nor the pied piper.

I’m gonna start with and apology to anyone who is offended by my post.

But…But…But…But…

Something needs to be said…………………………

This topic has, for me, shown the arrogance of Asian Muslims.

I am a white European Muslim from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

I have to say that, again in my own opinion, the Asian Muslims are often incredibly arrogant towards the non Asian, non- Muslim, population of the countries their parents choose to move to; the same land that they live in and receive rights and privileges that they would never be granted in the land of their fathers.

Ask any Somali Muslim, Turkish Muslim, Balkan Muslim, or Muslim converts from the UK and you will find that the resentment to Asian Muslims is quite high.

This doesn’t mean that there is any hatred or animosity towards the Asian Muslims, but it cannot be denied that Asian Muslims are regarded as having a superior attitude towards everyone else.

Anyone (non-Pakistani/Asian) who saw the documentary mentioned in this topic could not help but be disturbed by the attitude of that particular Muslim community.

Those kids were brainwashed with [b][i]Asian culture [/i][/b] and [u][b]NOT[/b][/u] Islam

Racism is a two way thing and the way that the kids in the documentary were treated was blatantly racist and totally Un-Islamic.

Cultural Islam must be abandoned.

Sorry if anyone was annoyed with my comments but it had to be said.

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