Halaal Meat: HMC vs HFA

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Do you know the rulings on animals killed through hunting using a bow and arrow etc?

and no, HFA are clearly not as you ae mischaracterise them.

You are using assumptions in order to bash them.

(PS I assume you can generally tell when someone is sleeping and when someone is dead?)

If you prefer HMC, then so be it. But remeber that they are just another monitoring committee (which may or may not be attacking others due to sectarian motives) and they are limited to specific geographical locations and are not universal or even UK wide.

I wonder what they would say about New Zealand lamb that has been slaughtered properly...

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

i sure hope thats not aimed at me after my first post - let me know if it is so i can answer

yes please.

(You're from London. From what I can gather, HMC is focussed around London too.)

oh, and where are my manners? welcome. Salaams.

I bought some jaffa cakes the other day. I will eat them now to celebrate your arrival.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

the hunting rules will apply to hunting only - because hunting is required in order to catch an animal

do you think the hunting rules would be applied to the zhaba of an animal that was tame and already in ones possession - of course not

so the hunting rules would not apply because the animal is already in the hands of the hfa

as for your insinuations about my link to the hmc because i am from london - nice attempt to detract from the point

you want me to prove my allegiance - i dont particularly think anyone should need to buy any meat from ANY meat supplier - in order to confirm your meat is halal go buy a cow and do it yourself

i hope that clears things up

I never insinuated anything.

I just suggested that since you are from London, HMC is around.

If you were from say Up North(TM) you may not even have heard of them.

You do not need to have links to them other than that they are present in your area. But I will not limit the ruling of halaal to a single organisation's views, an organisation that is limited geographically to a specific location.

I don't think Halaal meat is only available in London.

(I see that you don't understand why I brought up the hunting rules. So lets forget about it.)

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
I never insinuated anything.

I just suggested that since you are from London, HMC is around.

If you were from say Up North(TM) you may not even have heard of them.

You do not need to have links to them other than that they are present in your area. But I will not limit the ruling of halaal to a single organisation's views, an organisation that is limited geographically to a specific location.

I don't think Halaal meat is only available in London.

(I see that you don't understand why I brought up the hunting rules. So lets forget about it.)

theres 4 chicken burger shops up my street - 3 are hfa and one is hmc

i am here ultimately to learn so feel free to explain why you bought up hunting

i used 2 work at this restaurant in leeds and these iraqi guys used 2 come and eat and they believed u can eat any thing from anywhere just do the takbeer on the food when its in front of u on the table!

People often mistake Virtue with Honour
Virtue is what we do
Honour is how we do it.

the master calligrapher wrote:
i used 2 work at this restaurant in leeds and these iraqi guys used 2 come and eat and they believed u can eat any thing from anywhere just do the takbeer on the food when its in front of u on the table!

LOL o dear!

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

at least now we know its not.

Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

You wrote:
HFA = Stunning before slaughter is permissible, but not on its own.

in what scenarios would you just stunning???? would you not slaughter the animal in any case, afterwards????

"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"

the master calligrapher wrote:
i used 2 work at this restaurant in leeds and these iraqi guys used 2 come and eat and they believed u can eat any thing from anywhere just do the takbeer on the food when its in front of u on the table!

what???? thst not TRUE?????! :shock:

dear oh dear....

(i joke lol)

"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"

bilan wrote:
You wrote:
HFA = Stunning before slaughter is permissible, but not on its own.

in what scenarios would you just stunning???? would you not slaughter the animal in any case, afterwards????

Non Muslims who do not require slaughter are "happy" with just electrocuting the chicken to death.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
bilan wrote:
You wrote:
HFA = Stunning before slaughter is permissible, but not on its own.

in what scenarios would you just stunning???? would you not slaughter the animal in any case, afterwards????

Non Muslims who do not require slaughter are "happy" with just electrocuting the chicken to death.

thts pretty gross....so all the blood just sits there, it doesnt get drained???

and on a different note: food from the sea is considered halal, and tht would include sharks as well, but how does tht work since sharks are predatory and eat humans as well???

"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"

bilan wrote:
...sharks are predatory and eat humans as well???

Sharks do rarely eat humans and if they do then its normally by mistake.

Deleted - don't want to go off topic.

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

but is going of topic such a bad thing???? within reason tht is...

"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"

Depends what you mean by "within reason".

I find it annoying to see a good topic being destroyed by useless conversations which could take place in other places unless when a topic has already died or isn't very serious etc.

But obviously making a joke here and there is ok.

Smile

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

I've created another topic on quoting something from BBC News.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

I am missing the point...

You are saying that the animals have to be slaughtered the proper way after the stunning.. So why stun them in the 1st place if its not to kill them?

Some one clarify please.

people stun to make slaughtering easier (As animal not moving anymore)

i was pretty sure shark wasnt allowed, just in case it ate humans. i was pretty sure any man-eater we werent allowed to eat, aka, lions etc...
are we allowed to eat carnivorous animals?

Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

generally, no, but for seafood the rulings are different.

According to shaf'is all seafood is allowed.

According to hanafis only that seafood that cannot live outside water is allowed.

Where shark fits in I have no idea.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

why would you want to eat shark anyway? all these muscles..its gona be chewy and you're going to end up with overdeveloped mouth muscles with all that chewing..walking around like you're always biting your teeth.

Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

Lilly wrote:
why would you want to eat shark anyway? all these muscles..its gona be chewy and you're going to end up with overdeveloped mouth muscles with all that chewing..walking around like you're always biting your teeth.

Its not like you're going to be eating shark every single day :roll:

And yes you can eat shark.

Another company explaining how their meat IS halal although stunned.

The Arguments

Some of the reasoning used by voices against stunning is based around the following ayat of the Quran:

"Forbidden to you (for food) are dead animal, blood, the flesh of swine, and that over which has been invoked other than the name of Allah, that which has been killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a headlong fall or by being gored to death, that which has been partly eaten by a wild animal, unless you are able to slaughter (in due form), and that which is sacrificed on stone (altars)." (5:3)

The authorities argue that:

1) Research has shown that animals can and do die from stunning. If an animal dies because of stunning it is haram to eat. As we can't be 100% sure that the animal was alive at the time of slaughter we should then avoid all stunned meat.

We are partly in agreement. However, as we work in an abattoir we know from first hand experience that it is impossible for a lamb to die from a low voltage stun. In addition, if we follow the logic that because an animal may "possibly die" before slaughter we should not eat it, then why do we not also apply that logic to the person slaughtering the animal? They "possibly" did not follow the correct procedures for the slaughtering in terms of carrying it out properly and as a result we should consider the meat as haram. In fact the chances of this happening are higher than an animal dying from stunning.

2) The ayah says, "forbidden to you is the blood to consume." The halal authorities state that blood is dangerous if left inside the meat. Stunning can cause more blood to stay in the animal if the animal dies before being slaughtered.

Again, this is only applicable to an animal that dies before slaughter. It is not applicable to those that are still alive with hearts pumping when slaughtered meaning the blood runs free from the animal just as it would if it were alive. Furthemore, there is independent research to suggest the bleeding of stunned animals is equal to those on un-stunned.

3) The ayah says, "and an animal killed by a violent blow". This is compared to the act of stunning an animal and therefore invalidates it being halal.

Anyone who works in an abattoir will tell you that when you stun a lamb, there is absolutely no "blow" as this would make it impossible to stun it. The tongs must be carefully placed on the head otherwise they would not stay there.

Read the full article

Info on fatwa's regarding

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

Anyone know what the ruling is for an animal that has been slaughtered, but it dies before all the blood exits the body?

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Salaams,

A HFA approved slaughterhouse in Wales...... As i walked into the main abbotoir ( in clean overall, Snood, wellies and a hard hat. I came to a wash station with clean disposable towels attached on the wall next to it. After washing my hands i walked through a section that had bristles and water (like a carwash) this cleaned my wellies.

As i walked into the abotoir there were lines of carcasses hung from their hind legs. I walked to a section behind a wall were the lambs were being slaughtered. there were three muslims there conducting the slaughter, one was stunning, one was clamping the hind legs and one was cunducting the slaughter (reciting Bismillah Allah hu-Akbar). I asked the gentleman accompanying me "how do you know they dont feel pain with the stun?" he explained to me that tests had been carried out whilst the slaughter was taking place and light was shone into the lambs eyes....no response from the pupils..the eyes never lie. secondly i asked "what if the stun kills it? how would you know?" he pointed over to the animals that were bleeding out...for 1 min or so the bodiess of the sheep were moving around whilst bleeding out. if they were dead by the stun then that would not be the case. This is being monitored whenever a lamb is slaughtered. The voltage they were being stunned at was not set by the abotoir itself but by a governing EU body. not too low to cause harm before the slaughter and not too high to avoid killing it before the slaughter. I stood and watched this practice for over an hour on a number of different days. ...no change or lapse.

The knives were sharp and steralised (again the knives are sharpened regularly and steralised in water at 85 degrees if i'm not mistaken) i followed the sheep through the whole process. from removing the skin, gutting and chopping.

What i saw was the slaughter was NOT done by machines, the animal did not die before the slaughter and it was done in a clean efficient way.

I have not visited a HMC approved abotoir yet but I intend to insha'Allah.

which brings me to chicken. An unnamed chicken abotoir (halal and approved- not saying who) the chickend in a production line hung by their legs. their heads went though an electrified pool of water where their whole head was immersed. Now this was the shocking part...along came a blade and chopped their heads off.. Bismillah Allah Hu-Akbar was being played through the speakers!! i challenged this method because I knew that this method is not halaal. due to the fact that the whole head is chopped off. In zibah All arteries but the spinal cord are severed.The response was "we cannot do this the traditional way as demand is too high and we cannot possibly meet it without implementing this method.

My message is clear...if you really want to know and settle these arguments in your heads. Dont throw your confusion upon others and then spread Your "opinions" over the internet.. take the inniative and go and see for yourselves....no abotoir will say you cannot visit and see the process as a matter of fact they encourage it.

Please do not muscle your opinions onto others but state facts and educate yourselves and others in the process.

Wsalaam
Hamzah

jazakAllah for sharing this. mashaaAllah. have you visited any other hfa approved slaughterhouse?

Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

Salaams Lilly,

Yes I have visited another abattoir. Funny thing was they were doing both stunned slaughter and un-stunned depending on their order. Which leads me to be believe that they either have BOTH HMC and HFA approval....that's surely a conflict of interest? (or business is business for both parties?) This wasn't as clean as the other one I visited (they were a little lax when it came to quality control)

Hope this helps.

P.s I strongly recommend that people should visit these places. It also gives one a new respect for the animal even when you eat it.

I thought these certifying groups went out of their way to provide total certification - if some of the meat in the abatoirs is not slaughtered according to their criteria, the whole place is not certified in order to avoid contamination and false selling that can become common?

(otherwise a place may slaughter one animal on the side for show in the approved manner, do all the others cheaply and sell them as certified...)

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Yes that was my understanding too. I'm going to look into it a little more. Having spoken to someone in the business, some abattoirs tend to put the whole stun/unstunned argument to the back of their minds after all its just business. What I would like to know is if HFA (whom I thought took a dim view to slaughtering animals without stunning them are sticking to that principle, How can some HMC figures slander the HFA for doing that, but will do it themselves if somebody was to place an order for stunned slaughter?

I think I will visit some more abattoirs when I get the opportunity. (just for piece of mind)

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