Islam is not the problem. Muslims are.

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Suhail wrote:
yh i do agree they should be sorted out without violence before other measures are taken .. i think ur confused and you are going on stereotypes and confusing culture with religion there two completely different things

He is arguing that because SOME people confuse bad cultural practices with religion, all cultural practices should be abandoned. Or atleast was at one point.

Right now, I think all he wants is got us to say "Honour Killings are wrong". Which I did say.

Honour Killings are wrong.

(but that does not mean cultures should not adapt, evolve or mix. just the negative cultural practices should be eradicated.)

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

rakibm wrote:
"yet the viel on the other hand cannot harm it only protects a women from the eyes of another male for simple reasons portrayed in the western society ... guys sometimes just cant keep there eyes off girls so the viel is a way of protection and women should be allowed to wear it everywhere they go not just in an 'islamic' country"

WHAT?!

How can you say that when the veil predates ISLAM? I mean if you are talking about the Headscarf/Hijab...Fine. So why does the Woman have to cover her face?

BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T WANT A DESPERADO LOOKING AT HER.

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

honor killings are wrong no doubt but in some cases people lose all self control and feel the need to act with violence....and tbh can u really blame them because some acts are so herendous that people feel violence is the solution ... and if this was a perfect world then there wouldnt be such crimes of murder yet the hard fact is that these things happen and the law even to a certain extent protects defendants from hard punishment because in some cases the main element is that they were provoked to kill or suffered a loss of control ...and yes there are legitimate situations where this happens.

rakibm wrote:
How can you say that when the veil predates ISLAM? I mean if you are talking about the Headscarf/Hijab...Fine. So why does the Woman have to cover her face?

Food also predates Islam.

Islam does not repudiate everything that came before it. Existing practices that were not unislamic were allowed, incorporated and acted on by Muslims. Some of those rpactices even became sunnah because they were carried out in the presence of, or even encouraged by the Prophet (saw).

I don't think a woman has to cover her face. But I don't think it is my job to tell her what to wear either.

Enforcing your will onto others can lead to many many things - it can lead to much evil because it puts you in a position of power.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

rakibm wrote:
"yet the viel on the other hand cannot harm it only protects a women from the eyes of another male for simple reasons portrayed in the western society ... guys sometimes just cant keep there eyes off girls so the viel is a way of protection and women should be allowed to wear it everywhere they go not just in an 'islamic' country"

WHAT?!

How can you say that when the veil predates ISLAM? I mean if you are talking about the Headscarf/Hijab...Fine. So why does the Woman have to cover her face?

"The Believing Woman should cover her entire body, except her face and hands".

r@I

rakibm wrote:
"yet the viel on the other hand cannot harm it only protects a women from the eyes of another male for simple reasons portrayed in the western society ... guys sometimes just cant keep there eyes off girls so the viel is a way of protection and women should be allowed to wear it everywhere they go not just in an 'islamic' country"

WHAT?!

How can you say that when the veil predates ISLAM? I mean if you are talking about the Headscarf/Hijab...Fine. So why does the Woman have to cover her face?

covering the head is sometimes not enough if a girl feels that the hijab is not enough to protect herself in the society she lives in then why cant she take action by wearing the viel to protect her identity ...look i dont nw how u feel but if a sister of mine wore one to protect herself from guys who cant control themselves ultimately pervets who need to get a life then i wouldnt disagree that girl in my eyes is respectable because she is protecting herself and her beauty from other males eyes.

if ur married or whatever would u want another guy looking at that person in a wrong way ...the viel is a solution for this problem in society and its not only in the west this is everywhere u go.

Yes i know. But we do not live in the same social climate. Many things have happend.

If a Muslim Woman goes onto a train covered fully, people DO feel uncomfortable. I have had people ask me because I am Muslim to tell her not to go on the train! How ridiculous. Time have changed. Security has changed. And unfortunately if people do not feel safe, then things have to go. And lets face it...It won't be time until the terrorists use things like Burqas to blow people up, then that will be banned!

r@I

Suhail wrote:
honour killings are wrong no doubt but in some cases people lose all self control and feel the need to act with violence....and tbh can u really blame them because some acts are so horrendous that people feel violence is the solution ... and if this was a perfect world then there wouldn't be such crimes of murder yet the hard fact is that these things happen and the law even to a certain extent protects defendants from hard punishment because in some cases the main element is that they were provoked to kill or suffered a loss of control ...and yes there are legitimate situations where this happens.

Someone coming at you with a knife is not the same as killing a son or daughter (mostly the latter) or relation simply because you feel their actions have dishonoured you or your culture.

What is worse is in many of these cases the parents who have been "dishonoured" and not very honourable in the first place and often not only lack Islamic education, but have failed to provide it to the person who they feel has dishonoured them too.

Morons.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

rakibm wrote:
Yes i know. But we do not live in the same social climate. Many things have happend.

If a Muslim Woman goes onto a train covered fully, people DO feel uncomfortable. I have had people ask me because I am Muslim to tell her not to go on the train! How ridiculous. Time have changed. Security has changed. And unfortunately if people do not feel safe, then things have to go. And lets face it...It won't be time until the terrorists use things like Burqas to blow people up, then that will be banned!

I don't feel safe around drunk people, but no ones banin alcohol! And it is far more dangerous than the veil.

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

rakibm wrote:
Yes i know. But we do not live in the same social climate. Many things have happend.

If a Muslim Woman goes onto a train covered fully, people DO feel uncomfortable. I have had people ask me because I am Muslim to tell her not to go on the train! How ridiculous. Time have changed. Security has changed. And unfortunately if people do not feel safe, then things have to go. And lets face it...It won't be time until the terrorists use things like Burqas to blow people up, then that will be banned!

so if tomorrow torrorists start using the use of hijabs and jubbahs in terrorist acts shud the muslims abandon them aswel...thats a sign of weakness

and yh so what if people feel uncomfortable if train stations and airports tightened up security without asking women to remove viels etc then people would feel safer ...and yes technology has defnintly advanced enough to carry out sufficient security checks...its now a question whether people are against the so called terrorist threat or just simply against the viel itself....is the latter then people need to seriously sort their views out and keep them to themselves no one wants to hear of their prejudices.

Yeah ok. I understand. But how many women wear it thinking that it is part of their religion, because it is adopted by their culture? How many women wear it to actually become safe?

r@I

You wrote:
Suhail wrote:
honour killings are wrong no doubt but in some cases people lose all self control and feel the need to act with violence....and tbh can u really blame them because some acts are so horrendous that people feel violence is the solution ... and if this was a perfect world then there wouldn't be such crimes of murder yet the hard fact is that these things happen and the law even to a certain extent protects defendants from hard punishment because in some cases the main element is that they were provoked to kill or suffered a loss of control ...and yes there are legitimate situations where this happens.

Someone coming at you with a knife is not the same as killing a son or daughter (mostly the latter) or relation simply because you feel their actions have dishonoured you or your culture.

What is worse is in many of these cases the parents who have been "dishonoured" and not very honourable in the first place and often not only lack Islamic education, but have failed to provide it to the person who they feel has dishonoured them too.

Morons.

yh i agree that muslims mix culture with islam and therefore have very mixed and wrong views ...yet i cant completely codemn the fact that there are some situations where people take actions of violence because in all there anger they act without seeing ad thinking clearly ....even if these situations are 1 in a million they do occur.

tomorrow torrorists start using the use of hijabs and jubbahs in terrorist acts shud the muslims abandon them aswel...thats a sign of weakness

Don't know if you noticed but...We do not live in a "Islamic" Country. It is not up to Muslims whether they abandon the [cultural] dress code or not. It is up to the British people and the British Government what laws are made, and those laws we follow.

r@I

the day after someone wearing a suicide belt looks like he has a bear belly. lets ban bear bellies already! (and to be fair, pregnancy too.)

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

rakibm wrote:
Yeah ok. I understand. But how many women wear it thinking that it is part of their religion, because it is adopted by their culture? How many women wear it to actually become safe?

Go create a veil-is-not part-of-Islam awareness group.

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

rakibm wrote:
Yeah ok. I understand. But how many women wear it thinking that it is part of their religion, because it is adopted by their culture? How many women wear it to actually become safe?

well in the UK most girls that wear it are wearing it out of their own accord and are not forced i mean come on this is the UK not pakistan there is freedom here. and if they were forced to wear it then they would only where it infront of their parents lol not in college and uni etc .... and women mostly wear it to become safe i think they all realise that factor.

Suhail wrote:
You wrote:
Suhail wrote:
honour killings are wrong no doubt but in some cases people lose all self control and feel the need to act with violence....and tbh can u really blame them because some acts are so horrendous that people feel violence is the solution ... and if this was a perfect world then there wouldn't be such crimes of murder yet the hard fact is that these things happen and the law even to a certain extent protects defendants from hard punishment because in some cases the main element is that they were provoked to kill or suffered a loss of control ...and yes there are legitimate situations where this happens.

Someone coming at you with a knife is not the same as killing a son or daughter (mostly the latter) or relation simply because you feel their actions have dishonoured you or your culture.

What is worse is in many of these cases the parents who have been "dishonoured" and not very honourable in the first place and often not only lack Islamic education, but have failed to provide it to the person who they feel has dishonoured them too.

Morons.

yh i agree that muslims mix culture with islam and therefore have very mixed and wrong views ...yet i cant completely codemn the fact that there are some situations where people take actions of violence because in all there anger they act without seeing ad thinking clearly ....even if these situations are 1 in a million they do occur.

"yh i agree that muslims mix culture with islam and therefore have very mixed and wrong views"

So shouldn't culture be stripped from Islam. Arabian, Pakistani, Bengali [etc] culture be stripped from Islam then?

r@I

You wrote:
the day after someone wearing a suicide belt looks like he has a bear belly. lets ban bear bellies already! (and to be fair, pregnancy too.)

lol good comeback

rakibm wrote:
Don't know if you noticed but...We do not live in a "Islamic" Country. It is not up to Muslims whether they abandon the [cultural] dress code or not. It is up to the British people and the British Government what laws are made, and those laws we follow.

and as a British citizen I have a voice. We are not left at the mercy of others.

You were not advocating that either - you were advocating proactively for a ban. That is not the same as saying "if it is banned, we cannot do nothing" but "I want it banned".

Big difference in positions.

(lets ignore that fact that the veil is a non-issue in the UK so far. only UKIP wants to propose it for banning under its platform to undermine the tories.)

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Suhail wrote:
rakibm wrote:
Yeah ok. I understand. But how many women wear it thinking that it is part of their religion, because it is adopted by their culture? How many women wear it to actually become safe?

well in the UK most girls that wear it are wearing it out of their own accord and are not forced i mean come on this is the UK not pakistan there is freedom here. and if they were forced to wear it then they would only where it infront of their parents lol not in college and uni etc .... and women mostly wear it to become safe i think they all realise that factor.

+1

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

The Question is not whether they are being forced. The Question is how many wear it because they actually want to feel safe and how many wear it, thinking that it is part of their religion, because it is adopted by their culture?

r@I

rakibm wrote:
Suhail wrote:
You wrote:
Suhail wrote:
honour killings are wrong no doubt but in some cases people lose all self control and feel the need to act with violence....and tbh can u really blame them because some acts are so horrendous that people feel violence is the solution ... and if this was a perfect world then there wouldn't be such crimes of murder yet the hard fact is that these things happen and the law even to a certain extent protects defendants from hard punishment because in some cases the main element is that they were provoked to kill or suffered a loss of control ...and yes there are legitimate situations where this happens.

Someone coming at you with a knife is not the same as killing a son or daughter (mostly the latter) or relation simply because you feel their actions have dishonoured you or your culture.

What is worse is in many of these cases the parents who have been "dishonoured" and not very honourable in the first place and often not only lack Islamic education, but have failed to provide it to the person who they feel has dishonoured them too.

Morons.

yh i agree that muslims mix culture with islam and therefore have very mixed and wrong views ...yet i cant completely codemn the fact that there are some situations where people take actions of violence because in all there anger they act without seeing ad thinking clearly ....even if these situations are 1 in a million they do occur.

"yh i agree that muslims mix culture with islam and therefore have very mixed and wrong views"

So shouldn't culture be stripped from Islam. Arabian, Pakistani, Bengali [etc] culture be stripped from Islam then?

but why tho some culture is good tho like arranged marriages is not part of islam yet i wont completely condemn them for obvious reasons ....ofcourse there is some culture which should be completely stripped from islam because they add corruption but not all culture is bad.

rakibm wrote:
Yeah ok. I understand. But how many women wear it thinking that it is part of their religion, because it is adopted by their culture? How many women wear it to actually become safe?

there are people out there including scholars who believe niqaab is fardh.

there are also other people including scholars who believe it isn't.

they both use evidences from quran and ahadith to back up their stance and both are entitled to their opinion.

difference of opinion is allowed you know, the sahaba also disagreed with each other on things.

you need to accept that there are muslims who believe that the niqaab is a part of islam.

you need to research and look at both views.

rakibm wrote:
The Question is not whether they are being forced. The Question is how many wear it because they actually want to feel safe and how many wear it, thinking that it is part of their religion, because it is adopted by their culture?

even if forced girls still realise the reason behing the wearing of the viel ..and i dont think many are forced......so yes they wear it to stay safe and i can hardly blame them.

rakibm wrote:
The Question is not whether they are being forced. The Question is how many wear it because they actually want to feel safe and how many wear it, thinking that it is part of their religion, because it is adopted by their culture?

Are u telling me you've got statistics?

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

Your just one in a crowd. If a majority of people want it to happen, then it probably will happen. And also if the government thinks it is important for national security then it too will also happen.

r@I

If you want, But you must have common sense.

r@I

rakibm wrote:
Your just one in a crowd. If a majority of people want it to happen, then it probably will happen. And also if the government thinks it is important for national security then it too will also happen.

lool 'goverment' < is always corrupt and there is on a number of cases another agenda ...its not as straight forward as it seems mate i think the iraq inquiry is portraying that at the moment.

Sorry to butt in without reading all the posts previously, but re. wearing the niqaab in this country, here is an article that appeared in Issue 7 of The Revival magazine which covered this issue, in case anyone wanted to read it: .

Did i say that i disagree that there are muslims who believe that the niqaab is a part of Islam? No. I didn't.

If they didn't, then they would not wear it. But like I said..Their is no trust. A Suicide Bomber May go on a train or a bus covered head to toe, can not see face or anything, and you would not be able to tell whether it is a man or a woman. That bomb does not care if little kids die in the explosion, or if old people die or babies or Muslims die. No one is spared from their. Like i have been saying. Times have changed. There are MUSLIMS that want to kill, and like i said that bomb does not spare anyone.

r@I

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