Despair - the burden of the good-natured person?

A thought-provoking idea:

"Despair is the price one pays for setting oneself an impossible aim. It is, one is told, the unforgivable sin, but it is a sin the corrupt or evil man never practices. He always has hope. He never reaches the freezing-point of knowing absolute failure. Only the man of goodwill carries always in his heart this capacity for damnation."
- Graham Greene

Hmmm... anyone have any thoughts?

Im not really sure.
Just focusing on the first sentence.
Despair is a price one pays for setting oneself an impossible aim.

setting yourself an impossible aim could be seen as a challenge, even if you dont achieve it. For example, for some Muslim, an impossible aim in the western world could be to practice religion despite all the temptations. So although I can see there being despair along the way, it doesnt have to overtake the positive feeling that also comes with it?
Maybe despair can also encourage someone to do better.

It is, one is told, the unforgivable sin, but it is a sin the corrupt or evil man never practices

I can't get my head round this sentence I-m so happy

 

s.b.f wrote:

It is, one is told, the unforgivable sin, but it is a sin the corrupt or evil man never practices

I can't get my head round this sentence I-m so happy

I think it means that an evil person or a corrupt person will always think of a way to get what he/she wants, even if it involves hurting or exploiting others, whereas a good-natured person will always care deeply if other people are happy and, if they can't get what they want in a 'halaal' way, they will just be resigned to hopelessness (i.e. despair).

Example, you love someone deeply but they die as a disbeliever... if you have any ounce of compassion, you will despair over the fact they aren't going to heaven, whereas a heartless person won't care either way if someone else goes to hell or not - they just care about themselves.

Don't just do something! Stand there.

Hw is despair an unforgivable sin?

"Only the man of goodwill carries always in his heart this capacity for damnation."

Sounds like somthin from a bad novel. A guy bein all morbid and self sacrificing is not cool. Sounds like an idiot.

When life offers you a dream so far beyond any of your expectations, it is not reasonable to grieve when it comes to an end.

Does that verdict put you in the bad-natured-person category?

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
Does that verdict put you in the bad-natured-person category?

Why does it hav to put me in any category?
I just disagree dat despair is a quality for the good-natured person.

When life offers you a dream so far beyond any of your expectations, it is not reasonable to grieve when it comes to an end.

wednesday wrote:
I don't get this.

I feel SO hurt or heart broken (don't know which is which), I don't get it! Sad

You feel heart broken coz u dont get it???

Lol

When life offers you a dream so far beyond any of your expectations, it is not reasonable to grieve when it comes to an end.

What we call our despair is often only the painful eagerness of unfed hope.
Action being the antidote.

Back in BLACK

Seraphim wrote:
What we call our despair is often only the painful eagerness of unfed hope.
Action being the antidote.

That leads to the heart of the matter.

Sometimes well meaning people may not be willing to tread on others toes to get what they want - hence feeling despair.

Or I may be totally off the mark.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:

Sometimes well meaning people may not be willing to tread on others toes to get what they want - hence feeling despair.

I think that might be what it is.

When you REALLY want something (need?), but the only way to achieve it is through doing something you can't bear to do. Might be because of hurting others, might be because of committing a sin (unless hurting others ALWAYS committing a sin?).

Don't just do something! Stand there.

Despair ....one is told..is an unforgivable sin.

Who has made it an unforgivable sin? the person who is suffering from the despair?

 

s.b.f wrote:
Despair ....one is told..is an unforgivable sin.

Who has made it an unforgivable sin? the person who is suffering from the despair?

In Catholicism it is.

And I've heard something very similar in Islam... like having hope is quite a central characteristic of a 'good' Muslim.

Don't just do something! Stand there.

Okay.

Having despair can be a good thing too.

 

s.b.f wrote:
Okay.

Having despair can be a good thing too.

But isn't hope the better emotion?

“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”

Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi

Hope is definitely better emotion! of course it is.
But i think despair is also a good thing, since everyone experiences it sometime.

 

s.b.f wrote:
Hope is definitely better emotion! of course it is.
But i think despair is also a good thing, since everyone experiences it sometime.

So your argument is since everyone experiences it at some point... its good?
But we all experience fright at some point in our lives, does that make it a good thing? Do we wrap it up in a warm blanky, feed it, play with it and give it a name??

... i think i took the metaphor a little too far

Back in BLACK

Seraphim wrote:
s.b.f wrote:
Hope is definitely better emotion! of course it is.
But i think despair is also a good thing, since everyone experiences it sometime.

So your argument is since everyone experiences it at some point... its good?
But we all experience fright at some point in our lives, does that make it a good thing? Do we wrap it up in a warm blanky, feed it, play with it and give it a name??

... i think i took the metaphor a little too far

What?

I just meant generally that experiencing despair might make you a stronger person, more confident to make decisions next time.. and blah blah blah. Good in that sense.

 

Ya'qub, I like the quote, but me being me I have to disagree with it. Basically the quote can be taken two ways:

1./ The Superman Vs Lex Luther way. You guys have already identified this. Basically superman should just kill Lex and make the world a better place but he doesn't because that's against his morals, the good guy never kills the bad guy and so the bad guy always comes back. Lex on the other hand is always trying to kill superman and he always seems to have fun doing whereas superman tends to get fed up and occaionally question if he's entitled to be happy like the episode where he tells Lois tyhey can't be together because she'll end up getting killed.

2./ You've got to be in it to win it. Good people have something to loose, their humanity. Bad people have already lost this (without going to deep.) In the persuit of evil, a bad man can have fun and do what he wants. In the persuit of good a good man is constrainned by the boundries of ethical conduct.

Right, so I disagree with #1 because superman should kill Lex. Failing that he should become a sufi and just fight him where he can and be patient when he can't. I disagree with #2 because rather than "despair being the reward for an impossible aim" I say it's the experience of a person who doesn't aim impossibly high constantly. That is, when he's in a good phase he'll have all these high aspirations and then as he cools down he'll become jaded and question his values. Rather he should sit down and meditate and come to the crux of his character and ask himself, "If this was a dream that I was dreaming, what would I want to happen and what would I do to make that happen?"

Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.

Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes

Dawud wrote:

I disagree with #1 because superman should kill Lex. Failing that he should become a sufi and just fight him where he can and be patient when he can't.

Hmmm... OK, but what if he can't be patient because it's not in his nature? It's very easy for one of us to say 'Hey, you're superman! You should have patience,' but if we were in his situation (super strength, bad haircut) then we might not be able to.

So, you say, since he can't be patient them perhaps he should kill Lex instead. But... what if he realises that by killing Lex he will make Mrs Luther a widow and all the Lex Jnrs orphans? Someone with a heart might not want to punish them for the crimes of Luther.

There's a scene in the first Austin Powers movies where, just after the hero gets further in his mission to save the world by killing one of Dr Evil's henchmen, it flashes to a scene from his homelife. I can't remember it word-for-word (or the names), but it's something like this. The henchman's wife gets a phonecall. She answers:
"Yes, I'm Fred Bloggs' wife. Yes, he works as a henchman for Dr. Evil. OMG! Freddie, come here for a moment.
(enter 'Freddie', 10-year-old son of Fred Bloggs' wife)"Hi mom!"
"Freddie, John's not coming home today,"
"Why not?"
"Today at work he was decapitated by an ill-tempered mutated sea bass"
"But mom, ever since dad left, John's been like a father to me!"
(cue floods of tears, and they hug).

Would someone with a heart want that to happen? But if Austin Powers hadn't killed Fred Bloggs then he wouldn't have been able to save the world.

Dawud wrote:
I disagree with #2 because rather than "despair being the reward for an impossible aim" I say it's the experience of a person who doesn't aim impossibly high constantly. That is, when he's in a good phase he'll have all these high aspirations and then as he cools down he'll become jaded and question his values. Rather he should sit down and meditate and come to the crux of his character and ask himself, "If this was a dream that I was dreaming, what would I want to happen and what would I do to make that happen?"

But who aims impossibly high all the time? What if you wanted to aim impossibly high, but you felt responsible for someone else's happiness? Like you wanted to travel the world, but you have a sick relative who you have to look after. You have to stay with them, looking after them day-after-day, out of a sense of duty, even though you are utterly miserable. I can see how that could lead to despair. And the only way to realise your own personal dreams is by leaving your sick relative... which is what a heartless person might do, but not a good-natured person.

Don't just do something! Stand there.

Can I just interrupt this conversation to let you both know that Superman is boring?

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
Can I just interrupt this conversation to let you both know that Superman is boring?

VERY boring.

And why didn't he save everyone during 9/11?

Because he was in a wheelchair.

Too soon?

Don't just do something! Stand there.

You wrote:
Can I just interrupt this conversation to let you both know that Superman is boring?

Unfortunately that is true. He's too squeaky clean. Theres really no shades of gray.
He cant kill Luthor anyway, its against his nature to kill. You cant do good by doing evil.

Back in BLACK

Ya'qub wrote:
You wrote:
Can I just interrupt this conversation to let you both know that Superman is boring?

VERY boring.

And why didn't he save everyone during 9/11?

Because he was in a wheelchair.

Too soon?

Duuuude!!! low blow.

Back in BLACK

Seraphim wrote:
You wrote:
Can I just interrupt this conversation to let you both know that Superman is boring?

Unfortunately that is true. He's too squeaky clean. Theres really no shades of gray.
He cant kill Luthor anyway, its against his nature to kill. You cant do good by doing evil.

Of course you can!

As for him being squeaky clean...

hmmm...

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Don't derail my beautiful topic!

Yes, I know I added to the derailment.

But Superman was used as a metaphor, so can we go back to discussing the sark recesses of our souls, please?

Don't just do something! Stand there.

You wrote:
Seraphim wrote:
You wrote:
Can I just interrupt this conversation to let you both know that Superman is boring?

Unfortunately that is true. He's too squeaky clean. Theres really no shades of gray.
He cant kill Luthor anyway, its against his nature to kill. You cant do good by doing evil.

Of course you can!

No you cant! They've tried it! If you ever read about the Justice Lords it didnt work!!!

Back in BLACK

But such things are always too preachy.

The writers always go in with a message to show that it cannot work. Of course it can!

Its just like the message that crime never pays, that criminals always get caught. and they say they base this on the real world where people have always got caught after years of getting away.

But such reports are biased because they are focussing on people that actually got caught!

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Ya'qub wrote:
Don't derail my beautiful topic!

Yes, I know I added to the derailment.

But Superman was used as a metaphor, so can we go back to discussing the sark recesses of our souls, please?

Hope and despair are both an illusion. A trick of the mind.

It does not matter how good things are going and you could despair. At the same time, no matter how bleak things are you can find hope.

Ultimate despair I think can only be felt by someone who either does not believe in God, OR (subconsciously?) believes that God is out to get the person.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
Ya'qub wrote:
Don't derail my beautiful topic!

Yes, I know I added to the derailment.

But Superman was used as a metaphor, so can we go back to discussing the sark recesses of our souls, please?

Hope and despair are both an illusion. A trick of the mind.

It does not matter how good things are going and you could despair. At the same time, no matter how bleak things are you can find hope.

Ultimate despair I think can only be felt by someone who either does not believe in God, OR (subconsciously?) believes that God is out to get the person.

I dont think its a trick but more of a state of mind.

And ofcourse they all eventually get caught. Point out the ones that havent gotten caught.

Back in BLACK

wednesday wrote:
Or maybe state of LIFE?

Cant argue with that.

Back in BLACK

Ya'qub wrote:
Dawud wrote:

I disagree with #1 because superman should kill Lex. Failing that he should become a sufi and just fight him where he can and be patient when he can't.

Hmmm... OK, but what if he can't be patient because it's not in his nature?

The original objection was that despair was a defacto result of being a superman type person. If superman is despairing because patience isn't in his nature he should meditate and try to learn how to be patient. In the support of my argument, it is not necessary for superman to be patient, it is only necessary that the option of patience should exist.

Ya'qub wrote:

So, you say, since he can't be patient them perhaps he should kill Lex instead. But... what if he realises that by killing Lex he will make Mrs Luther a widow and all the Lex Jnrs orphans? Someone with a heart might not want to punish them for the crimes of Luther.
Still kill Luther and then look into how you can support his widow and orphans. It's only as complicated as you make it. Luther crossed too many lines, for a symbol of justice like superman not to kill him would itself be injustice. But superman doesn't spare him for this reason, he spares him because he doesn't want to get blood on his hands and thus risk compromising his moral stature.

Ya'qub wrote:

Dawud wrote:
I disagree with #2 because rather than "despair being the reward for an impossible aim" I say it's the experience of a person who doesn't aim impossibly high constantly. That is, when he's in a good phase he'll have all these high aspirations and then as he cools down he'll become jaded and question his values. Rather he should sit down and meditate and come to the crux of his character and ask himself, "If this was a dream that I was dreaming, what would I want to happen and what would I do to make that happen?"

But who aims impossibly high all the time?


Exactly. Very few can manage it all the time but the point isn't that you must do it, the point is that it exists as an alternative option to despair. Good people will have their lows from time to time and this is fine provided they can pick themselves back up. I will concede that much (with the proviso of getting back up) but if the person stays in the rut then they're showing bad form and need to be inspired again. Again I say that, in support of my argument it is not necessary that good people never despair, only that they have access to the tools to ward it off and recover from it.

Ya'qub wrote:
What if you wanted to aim impossibly high, but you felt responsible for someone else's happiness? Like you wanted to travel the world, but you have a sick relative who you have to look after. You have to stay with them, looking after them day-after-day, out of a sense of duty, even though you are utterly miserable. I can see how that could lead to despair. And the only way to realise your own personal dreams is by leaving your sick relative... which is what a heartless person might do, but not a good-natured person.

Three answers:

1./ You're right and I'm wrong. The person is stuck (I would probably not accept that, but I can be a bit of an oddball.)

2./ Leave the relative but come back after a while. They might die while you're away or be in a harsh condition but you decide you can live with that. I would only consider this option if the travelling desire was eating away at you and making you be bad (and maybe violent) with the relative. If it was only causing despair, I would probably say stay and throw some provisos in to aleviate that despair. In which case you are technically right and I am technically wrong.

3./ Stay and make new dreams. This takes guts and sustained effort but it can be done, and if it can be done then there is a reasonable alternative to despair.

Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.

Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes