Gay groups angry at Pope remarks

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MakeMeRawr_6TeenF wrote:
Anonymous123 wrote:
said that saving humanity from homosexual or transsexual behaviour was as important as protecting the environment."

Its true though...he was referring to the fact that homosexuality leads to self destruction and we are responsible for saving humanity

it's "true"?
Why is it TRUE?
Because YOU think it is?

Because it's in the Qur'an?

Something being in the Qur'an doesn't make it true.... it's your personal faith that makes you believe it's true.... if it was true ANYWAY what's the point of faith at all?

maybe saying that its true that homosexuality leads to self destructiion,

Something being in the Qur'an doesnt make it true? I think it does simply because its the word of Allah swt. However the bit where you said that your personal faith makes you believe its true,, it also right,,how much you believe in things can influence the way you think

 

MakeMeRawr_6TeenF wrote:
Something being in the Qur'an doesn't make it true...

Yes it does. The que'ran is not the bible - where due to additions., subtractions things and meaning may have changed.

Quote:
it's your personal faith that makes you believe it's true.... if it was true ANYWAY what's the point of faith at all?

Faith is not saying that Homosexuality is right or wrong. Its belief in Allah (swt), His angels, His scriptures, his messengers, The day of judgement, than good and bad are BOTH from Him and in life after death.

Since we believe that the Qur'an is unaltered, saying that it is wrong (as opposed to a specific interpretation - but in important cases the words are clear with little room for misinterpretation. Just a lack of knowledge may prevent a person from knowing) means that you are saying God is wrong. That He is not infallible and that line of thinking is/leads to kufr.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

s.b.f wrote:
MakeMeRawr_6TeenF wrote:
Anonymous123 wrote:
said that saving humanity from homosexual or transsexual behaviour was as important as protecting the environment."

Its true though...he was referring to the fact that homosexuality leads to self destruction and we are responsible for saving humanity

it's "true"?
Why is it TRUE?
Because YOU think it is?

Because it's in the Qur'an?

Something being in the Qur'an doesn't make it true.... it's your personal faith that makes you believe it's true.... if it was true ANYWAY what's the point of faith at all?

maybe saying that its true that homosexuality leads to self destructiion,

Something being in the Qur'an doesnt make it true? I think it does simply because its the word of Allah swt. However the bit where you said that your personal faith makes you believe its true,, it also right,,how much you believe in things can influence the way you think

Yep Pardon

#Before you look at the thorns of the rose , look at it's beauty. Before you complain about the heat of the sun , enjoy it's light. Before you complain about the blackness of the night, think of it's peace and quiet... #

You wrote:
MakeMeRawr_6TeenF wrote:
Something being in the Qur'an doesn't make it true...

Yes it does. The que'ran is not the bible - where due to additions., subtractions things and meaning may have changed.

Quote:
it's your personal faith that makes you believe it's true.... if it was true ANYWAY what's the point of faith at all?

Faith is not saying that Homosexuality is right or wrong. Its belief in Allah (swt), His angels, His scriptures, his messengers, The day of judgement, than good and bad are BOTH from Him and in life after death.

Since we believe that the Qur'an is unaltered, saying that it is wrong (as opposed to a specific interpretation - but in important cases the words are clear with little room for misinterpretation. Just a lack of knowledge may prevent a person from knowing) means that you are saying God is wrong. That He is not infallible and that line of thinking is/leads to kufr.

Yes. Faith is in Allah
and the Qur'an is Allah's word- therefore to believe in Allah's word, you need to have faith in Allah, Himself. You can't have faith in the Qur'an and not in God.... and vice versa.

But when you say that something in the Qur'an is "right"- you ARE saying a specific interpretation is right.... your own! and when you say that there's little space for misinterpretation.... IMO there ALWAYS is.... i don't think God is fallible, i think Humans- subjective experiences/interpretations are.... And i think YOU misinterpreted, i didn't say that because it's in the Qur'an it's WRONG, i said because it's in the Qur'an it's not necessarily RIGHT (objectively) and no, Imo that's not the same thing....

#Before you look at the thorns of the rose , look at it's beauty. Before you complain about the heat of the sun , enjoy it's light. Before you complain about the blackness of the night, think of it's peace and quiet... #

Not everything can be interpreted wrong. SOme things are very clear and explicitly stated. Others are implied.

And the book was not revealed in isolation. It was revealed through the life of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) and when there is doubt, the life of the Prophet (saw), his sayings, his implementations of the words are used as further explanation.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
Not everything can be interpreted wrong. SOme things are very clear and explicitly stated. Others are implied.

And the book was not revealed in isolation. It was revealed through the life of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) and when there is doubt, the life of the Prophet (saw), his sayings, his implementations of the words are used as further explanation.

The way we interpret the sayings of the Qu'ran,, could that be a "test" ?

Different religios people interpret what the Qu'ran say differently. Some people who do not like Islam, seem to think that the Qu'ran is always about killing Christians,, which it obviosuly isnt.

The way Muslims interpret it. Could that be a test? I read the translations of the Qu'ran and I dont get it. Firstly I am relying on whoever wrote the translation to be correct although they do have subscripts to sentences and explain that they could be interpretating it wrong, or if there are other ways to interpret one sentence.

And suicide bombers, they recite parts of the Qu'ran and say its right to kill people! what that is got to do with anything.. I dont know, Something that was passing through my mind as i am typing

 

re killing people - they take it out of context. the verses surrounding the one they use do contain limitations and rules of engagement. Its like a prescription. a legal document. You cannot just take one bit and ignore the rest.

Its like reading the above paragraph but missing out half the words to get a new meaning.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
re killing people - they take it out of context. the verses surrounding the one they use do contain limitations and rules of engagement. Its like a prescription. a legal document. You cannot just take one bit and ignore the rest.

Its like reading the above paragraph but missing out half the words to get a new meaning.

I know. Iv read about that somewhere before. Its because I saw this interview on CNN once. The reporter was questioning this guy. He was quoting things from Qu'ran like he knew everything. And the reporter was nodding her head like yes,, I understand. I wanted to pull her hair.

 

The quoted one often is "Kill them whenever you confront them".

The full section (according to the ):

2.190. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of Allah, but do not transgress, for Allah does not love transgressors.

2.191. Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing. Do not fight against them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight against you; but if they fight against you kill them, for that is the reward of such unbelievers.

2.192. Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

2.193. Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is only against the wrong-doers.

2.194. The sacred month for the sacred month; sanctities should be respected alike ( by all concerned). Thus, if someone has attacked you, attack him just as he attacked you, and fear Allah and remain conscious that Allah is with those who guard against violating the bounds set by Him.

totally different meaning.

The first supports senseless murder.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
The quoted one often is "Kill them whenever you confront them".

The full section (according to the ):

2.190. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of Allah, but do not transgress, for Allah does not love transgressors.

2.191. Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing. Do not fight against them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight against you; but if they fight against you kill them, for that is the reward of such unbelievers.

2.192. Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

2.193. Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is only against the wrong-doers.

2.194. The sacred month for the sacred month; sanctities should be respected alike ( by all concerned). Thus, if someone has attacked you, attack him just as he attacked you, and fear Allah and remain conscious that Allah is with those who guard against violating the bounds set by Him.

totally different meaning.

The first supports senseless murder.

mmmm,, and are we suppose to agree with it?

the only bit of the whole thing I had heard was " Do not fight against them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight against you; but if they fight against you kill them, for that is the reward of such unbelievers."

Reading the link: I like this bit:

The Prophet prohibited all these acts. The real intent of the verse is to stress that force
should be used only when its use is unavoidable, and only to the extent that is absolutely necessary.

 

So? Is the Pope Catholic?

  • It can never be satisfied, the mind, never. -- Wallace Stevens

Good question.

How is Catholicism defined?

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
Good question.

How is Catholicism defined?

Wikipedia?

 

s.b.f wrote:
You wrote:
Good question.

How is Catholicism defined?

Wikipedia?

HAHAHA

Don't just do something! Stand there.

Ya'qub wrote:
s.b.f wrote:
You wrote:
Good question.

How is Catholicism defined?

Wikipedia?

HAHAHA

:roll:

@ You.

"Not everything can be interpreted wrong. SOme things are very clear and explicitly stated. Others are implied."

That seems naive to me, if it's as simple as that- how come so many different people have such different views about the SAME thing? because IMO everything, yes everything, can potentially be interpreted DIFFERENTLY. i never said people interpreted them WRONG. Quote me if/where you think i did.

"And the book was not revealed in isolation. It was revealed through the life of the Prophet Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him and when there is doubt, the life of the Prophet Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him, his sayings, his implementations of the words are used as further explanation."

Everyone thinks that way... and they STILL interpret things differntly

If i'm correct, in the Qur'an it says to pray
In the Sunnah it says How.

and yet all Muslims don't pray the same.... there are/tend to be subtle differences between different interpretations by different sects or even different individuals...

#Before you look at the thorns of the rose , look at it's beauty. Before you complain about the heat of the sun , enjoy it's light. Before you complain about the blackness of the night, think of it's peace and quiet... #

Let's go back to the original topic as an example. Does any mainstream muslim group interpret those verses in a different way or are they all the same?

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
Let's go back to the original topic as an example. Does any mainstream muslim group interpret those verses in a different way or are they all the same?

The original topic is ONE example....
what applies to that one thing doesn't necessarily apply to all things.

I didn't say everything WAS interpreted different, i said it potentially COULD.

HOWEVER.

Even though "mainstream Muslim groups" Might interpret it the same/similarly
That's not to say every individual does

According to Ya'qub, homosexuality is forbidden in Islam (which i suspected it was tbqh. or else- why all the drama?)

Even though Most Muslims KNOW this ^^^ , some think it means not associating yourselves with homosexuals at all, others take it as "just don't be one" etc. Imo...It's the way you interpret something that enables you to form an opinion on/of it

#Before you look at the thorns of the rose , look at it's beauty. Before you complain about the heat of the sun , enjoy it's light. Before you complain about the blackness of the night, think of it's peace and quiet... #

You wrote:
The quoted one often is "Kill them whenever you confront them".

The full section (according to the ):

2.190. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of Allah, but do not transgress, for Allah does not love transgressors.

2.191. Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing. Do not fight against them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight against you; but if they fight against you kill them, for that is the reward of such unbelievers.

2.192. Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

2.193. Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is only against the wrong-doers.

2.194. The sacred month for the sacred month; sanctities should be respected alike ( by all concerned). Thus, if someone has attacked you, attack him just as he attacked you, and fear Allah and remain conscious that Allah is with those who guard against violating the bounds set by Him.

totally different meaning.

The first supports senseless murder.

Dont get annoyed with this question, but are they all meanings for the quote "Kill them whenever you confront them" ?

 

nope. the starting are verse numbers.

The popular quote is Surah 2 (Baqarah) verse 191 (or just the starting of it). The quote is a single translation from verse 190 to 194.

Quoting that half a sentence has a totally different meaning when taken out of context.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
nope. the starting are verse numbers.

The popular quote is Surah 2 (Baqarah) verse 191 (or just the starting of it). The quote is a single translation from verse 190 to 194.

Quoting that half a sentence has a totally different meaning when taken out of context.

I thought so. and the starting/verse numbers helped.
Yes, quoting it as a half sentence makes it sound like a fact or a demand. People who read the Qu'ran without using their brain, will probably read that and think it is asking me to do something.
The rest kind of sounds like instructions.

 

You wrote:
The quoted one often is "Kill them whenever you confront them".

The full section (according to the ):

2.190. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of Allah, but do not transgress, for Allah does not love transgressors.

2.191. Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing. Do not fight against them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight against you; but if they fight against you kill them, for that is the reward of such unbelievers.

2.192. Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

2.193. Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is only against the wrong-doers.

2.194. The sacred month for the sacred month; sanctities should be respected alike ( by all concerned). Thus, if someone has attacked you, attack him just as he attacked you, and fear Allah and remain conscious that Allah is with those who guard against violating the bounds set by Him.

totally different meaning.

The first supports senseless murder.

when taken on its own and out of context, yes, THEN it does
but we're forgetting
at that time, when the Qur'an was revealed, the Prophet PBUH and his followers had to bear voilencce and death threats from their enemies
maybe thats the reason for the verse?
one cannot jsut open the Qur'an at leisure, take a sinle sentence and say "well there u go, end of!"

The "Kill them where you find them" is part of a verse that tells us that we can fight in self-defence but not go to extremes.

“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”

Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi

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